THE GRAPEVINE | Religion: Friend or Foe? | Episode 43
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have some kids in the Christian Way it paint my tires overdraft my bank I did what was it always was in my thoughts or the way hello and welcome to the grapevine I'm Ashley hakuna and on today's episode I'm going to be talking about religion but before we get into it let me introduce you to my panel selected me I have Shola Denisha Bobby who chechi and Ellen and to my right I have Donovan Carl Mouse Sheba and a piece welcome to the panel everybody all right so I recently saw a video of the eight witches pastors in the world I think it was black pastors and it was you know they were mostly african-american and Nigerian and I can't the common denominator of I think that both of the congregation's that you know their congregations were very poor collectively so what do we think about what religion has turned into how it affects the black community and you know all those things going on I don't think that religion has changed I think people have changed it or people are using it in the wrong ways you see things like that that's just exploitation of what something that was maybe intended to be good or there are people who actually use religion for good things for their spirituality to find their higher selves you know maybe they take from different religions but when you see you know it makes me really upset when I see that when you like watch TV you see these pastor who had like selling holy water and they're saying they're going to throw it on people and then they just get up and start walking like that's the straight exploitation of and taking advantage of people calling on both media who are vulnerable and it's really upsetting honestly um I think that people need to learn how to think for themselves research for themselves take things that they know work for themselves and motivate them and use that to move forward instead of being like cult ish and following these pastors no because it's go ahead a nation one of the things that I see often is that there's people that can portray and say that they are spiritual and that they are a leader for the community but really the one that you can see in their actions that they're not really other thing the one thing that you can always say is that in the Bible that tells you that the devil spoke the Word of God so a good person could sing that their preacher could be just as devilish as anybody else so we in those situations where you see like these mega pastors that wear most of their comedy creation is not at the same level or Neath not even close like not even living well but they're giving all their money to them and getting nothing else in return they're really being bamboozled right now with someone that is really not him oh yeah hey Bobby you said the Bible would is the symphysis it's a way to control people and to make money but you can't really look at it as God's Word which is a big problem I have but you know I don't want to say what she was talking about it but just cuz the thing said in the Bible doesn't mean that's literally what happened like I don't I don't agree with that at all well so now we're getting into a fundamental difference of whether we believe the Bible is really I mean she brought it up as a double like yeah you know I can understand who who thinks the Bible with Christians on the panel yeah um so what do you what do you think about whether another the Bible is real I mean a lot of these types huh the Bible isn't even complete like it's not even an actual collection of texts written during that time so I mean think about any story if I take a chapter out of any story like you completely change the context of something like if say I shoot him but if I take out the part of the story where he tried to shoot at me first that story looks completely different so I mean whether it's really I mean it's historically that the information comes from a historical place whether it's complete and whether messages were lost in translation is a completely different story but in regards to religion even before you dominant men monotheistic religions you have now religion was always used as a tool to control and subjugate societies and you know whether it's the Pharaohs or whether it was the Indians you know telling people you can't do certain things because you know the rain God doesn't want us to do this or whatever whatever but um I think the biggest problem with blacks and religion and I mean the messed up part about it is for some black people they use that religion as a tool tool to better themselves but for the majority of black people they religious cells mediocrity in a sense that um you know deal with the stuff you have now because the afterlife is going to be better you know let go and let God so it kind of mutes that that initiative within the black community which you don't see you know say within the Asian community where their belief structure is set up a little different you kind of see it in the waiting act and move about because they kind of value what their actions do on this earth like it's part of their belief structure so I just think that's you spoke about how half of the story is told right in the Bible you show half the stories told but then you did the same thing a few centons later when you said you know you spoke to affirmation in the body let go like God what been saying it kills the initiative when also in the same Bible it says faith without works is dead it also says a man without a vision shall perish you get I'm saying says write down your vision and make it plain I'm not here to preach but what I'm saying is if what I'm but what I'm saying is if done within proper context and with and if done and if everybody looks at it as everybody here is human the Bible also says were we're in the world but not of the world also says that we're just here having a natural experience right so we have to live through that right so we may look to these pastors and see that okay you're my shepherd you were deemed by God to lead right but that doesn't make you perfect and what happens a lot of times in these religions will you follow the pastor more than you follow phrase and also the pastor a lot of times just as much makes that thing makes that the thing to do he becomes uh he becomes the nucleus of the bubbly becomes a and then everything built around him is something that makes sure he can do what he wants and no one can question it I love just said but I think the issue is all of the other Bible verses you you just spoke I don't really hate those always hear like oh my god this is you know what I mean well that's I think if we're talking about if we're talking about in that realms of if you've done everything else right we're talking about if we're just you know it comes up a lot here so you know it's the great bond so we're going to talk about black lives matter if we're talking about in regards to that right it was a number one I'm completely disgusted with the church's lack of involvement in black last night that's definitely one number two when it comes to let go Allah God in that room it's given the fact that we've done everything as we've led we've marched we've protested we've gotten violent we've lewd we did all that so at this point at this junction you might want to let go like that so I just so this is Shiva just to point this out my issue with the prevent I'm Catholic I'm Roman Catholic I grew up in the church my issue with the church is or with black people and the church is from the time of slavery the Bible was used to make us passive so now the problem is is that we have forgotten those first off Jesus was a rebel he did say there was not of his time which is why he was crucified when she was why he was pushed to crucifixion was occurred so if you have that but yet your teaching of this loving Jesus and this idea of like you know slavery being in the Bible and all this stuff we're black people are still continually following this these verses rather than following the verses about faith without works and following the racism or remembering the story of Jesus how he cleared the temple when because he was angry and said you know this is not how it's supposed to be so there's you know trying to avoid anger and trying to avoid all this stuff and saying you know because God doesn't like this or God doesn't like that these are all things that was used to pacify us in order to keep us from elevating past are certain situations that connection so my thing with religion I grew up in Nigeria and my parents were very religious up to a point and I think like from a very early age I just never really liked going to church so as far as I was concerned like it was something that was forced um so like it was something that was forced and I hated the fact that it was forced but and I was living in a society that was so religious and not really seeing that play out in how we were treating each other sociologically and so like in you know in accordance of what you're saying like Nigeria I don't have that problem with pastors leading congregations or people are starving and they're in private jets and you know churches are actually built for the elite yes and it's actually illegal in the hospital yeah they'll bow to their past I was an issue on Twitter the other day of a church in Nigeria that brought a list of what you needed to do to get married in this church and it was like 20 rules it was just all like really ridiculous things and I think that one thing we're missing when we talk about religion and spirituality is the point of religion I think was for fellowship for us to kind of commune together but the things start to institutionalize that the more that that fellowship becomes concrete meet them one of that fellowship becomes an institution so it has norms and has values and then those things human bias becomes enacted on spirituality and that's where I have a problem what has shown just to kind of piggyback what Sheba said when I went to Nigeria this year recently and I got off the plane like I almost like broke down like this country is just torn down people in the streets but I see not one person crying like you're all like hey what's up or whatever I'm like what is it and then one of my friends I was there was like oh it's religion religion keeps these people faithful that things are going to get better so that kind of made me feel good but then kind of looking back I'm like is it religion that's actually kind of keeping them at this level from you know rising up and making a change so it's alright you are leaving so how do you believe in the Bible no okay well right I leave in messages that you solely believe in a Bible wholehearted do I believe in I believe in a Bible I do I have an issue with some things in the Bible absolutely um because if where it would be an honest you roll a lot I'm an American black Christian I was raised in a black church I was raised on that you know underneath the fire and brimstone messages basically there was no messages of knowledge of doing better it was all it was all the messages was geared towards if you don't do what I say if you don't do it I said you're going to hell right now now I don't do that because the message has grown in the church that I grew up when I'm thankful for growing up in that church because the message progressed in that church where there's some people who I'm 27 years old who go to a church for 27 years and the message is still fry and brimstone yeah but you quoted the Bible as I really did but you pick and choose what you use to buy no sir you know sir no no no it's what I do what I do is I don't with you 28 don't wanna kick oh okay personally so how can you in the Bible you believe what Goss is right because God isn't God is a God of faithfulness that is a good the same Beiler to try and here's a pernickety persecuting marital but born in fornication asan is more aligned with first what it means having sex with a prostitute under a bridge that's what it that's that's not me that's a little God's going to be research for yourself that's a little buddy but even in your in your defense against me I will give you that I don't I do against you I just that I do my duty on occasion I'm not picking and choosing when I'm in some somebody fall short I'm somebody who I'm somebody who allows you to say that you're allowed to fall short if you're gonna follow the Bible I mean you follow tomorrow and say I have because once again God is a God of forgiveness well the Bible the Bible I was gonna say how did you say person that writes about he didn't write the Bible okay we walked about who said yeah there's the Bible words by misery so it's okay so there's three points that I heard in this one that the Bible in slavery times is used to hold people down yes because at the same token black people couldn't read when they were allowed the law made it against the law for you to be able to learn and knowledge so other people were interpreting the word for them so until you can internalize the word for yourself you don't get the opportunity to understand and read the word and know it for yourself so yes people pick and choose things out of the Bible and use it to their own values or their own purpose at any given point in time that you can see someone will snatch the poor one poor part of the Bible in the Old Testament that says you are gonna die if you get tattoos if you eat shrimp if you do this if you do that or a third but you don't know that although that there is a new glass oh no gospel that talks about God's forgiveness because Old Testament God was a vengeful God can I show what I'm saying remember where he sent the flood right to wipe out all the people and he said that his heart was turned towards the people because he's like I would never do that again because I would assignment that's what the Rainbows that's what I'm saying because God wipe out the earth with water he said next time inspired and the time expired but thing is that I don't know I'm just cuz I don't watch I just don't want that part of the word so so what happens God didn't bother having it was a covenant once so so we kind of jumped right we kind of jumped from Old Testament New Testament see what happened was once Christ gave His life there was a covenant made you that I'm saying so that's it so that's what happens in Leviticus we're now word that's what happens when things were amended and Leviticus where we can't eat shrimp and we can shave and we're not gonna go to hell for the Covenant between the phrases and yes there's one last way right so in the end one of the things that we also see is that God said this Jesus God said that love for each other is the proof of your following a pen absolutely and if you're not showing by that you're a follower of Christ through your love for others that's the point where you have broken your confident with God okay so that's where I'm saying that that's the fundamental thing is that when you say that you have a following with Christ and God you're supposed to be christ-like in the in the way you treat others okay got it okay so I just wanted to say like for us we're in a particular part of the world we've been exposed to Christianity in the Bible there are many many many holy holy books there are many religions and there are tons and tons of things like the God created the world it was Adam and Eve then there was just some chicks that came through for the kids that nobody know where they came from you know what I'm saying there are lots of things in the Bible that don't make any sense yes so what it is important but I think that people understand is that the Bible just like a car just like a map is a moon as a tool it's okay it's a way for you to get to a very very special special place right and we honestly get distracted by these stories that are from a bazillion years ago okay wait a minute so your your job like if you look at the themes like you have people who are let's say in the middle of what we would say nowhere and they worship trees or their ancestors or things like that is that not God is that not way of connecting to the world into spirits into all of these things if your connection is that you maybe Jesus represents Graham grace maybe Jesus represents love maybe he never existed maybe the point is to teach you guys about Grace and love and love and and you know being around people in and an experienced humanity so on so I just say that this is when we receive religion being webinars and we see religion being used to divide and that's not the intention that's what I think religion becomes very dangerous especially over black people because we know that it was a part of strategy to control people so you have to free your mind and you have to open yourself up to gaining the knowledge and the interpretation that works for your life and I also know I like what you said about it being a tool because if anybody wants birth of the nation I watched it nat turner you literally use the bible as he felt like i was talking to him to say new bell and i feel like we don't so we don't hear those stories so often I feel like the Bible can be used as a as a point for revolution for the head of Jesse so um so piggyback off of what you are saying so like I think just to kind of bring back the conversation like it's not so we're talking about like you know what God said in the Bible but really what the problem is is like how black people have interpreted it for so long and the ocean and how ends it and so like I said from before like the issue is that we continue to take the interpretation that was given to us when we were brought here or when black people were brought to this country and we haven't deferred from we haven't changed from that so I was just like what are we doing as a community to hear the other sides of the like nat turner a lot of people thought that will say the Netzarim was crazy but forget Joan of Arc who also heard voices until to promote and like you know orbs many of the martyrs of the church I'm Catholic so a lot of saints are like I'm saying so like you know so you know so thanks I'm a today also like you know but like Joan of Arc was told to essentially to she was led to her death by God but yet Nat Turner was told the same thing and what people will tell you is that that Turner was crazy but the same thing was being told to him so it's interesting how like one side to – oh no she was divinely inspired another person that they were insane and I think as black people the whole pie for me personally for me it's very true out the whole point of spirituality of religion is to for me is to a structure my spirituality I'm one of those people I like structure which is why I haven't left the Catholic Church I like structure I like things to be set a certain way so for me that's what religion is but me with that what that has meant for me is that I had to interpret religion in my own way interpret Catholicism in my own way because thousand does not recognize the African the African Catholic so it's just like you have so you have as black people what we need to do now is start interpreting these lessons that we were sorry and look at the Bible and interpret them in ways that will help affect our sector positively so unfortunately we did not have any more time but go ahead show what about you as I didn't believe in the Bible before one time that's wasted Easter basically what I would I wanted to the media I wanted I think we should not pay so much attention to religion religion is a crutch it's a crutches it's nothing but a routine right what we need to be focused on just like in anything else our relationship with whoever your religion my would be my relations with Christ right I'm not going to lean on a book or anything else or any other interpretation to tell me anything else it's going to be my relationship with Christ just like it my relationship with any woman I deal with let me make sure my relationship is intact therefore our interaction will be proper same thing with with Christ or whoever used to serve make sure you have a relationship with your spirituality instead of having a religion of TV and we will see you next time thank you what was it always wasn't my thoughts or the way I was raised I'll fake the Golden Slipper mama say I don't know how to turn a bad but I saw goodbye love I gotta go

I would recommend everyone to read the book "The Black Church Where Women Pray and Men Prey" By Deborrah Cooper. Thank me later.

I don't think they are discussing the right thing. Its not if the events of the bible makes sense, its if religion is hurting or helping the community. A discussion of the sense of the bible is stupid. Spoiler- it makes no sense.

A lot of the christian religion was taken and copied from egyptian spirituality. Religion folds into imperialism and colonialism. christian religion favors white people and black people who follow it appear silly in my eyes. Not enough research is being done within the black community. There’s a reason that churches have been kept alive and not any black banks, stores and businesses. The pastor is the new fbi informant and is meant to keep black people in their place using religion.

I beg the question, Why not have just faith in your own self determination instead of some extrinsic force? LOL moving forward.

What we are calling religion is essentially all of human culture. Secularism only arose in the past 400 years as a response to the oppressive Catholic Church. You can't accurately generalize all of human culture with one simplistic word. Human culture is far too diverse.

There will never be clarity when talking about or using the word "religion". It is far too broad and too vague to have any usefulness in any clear, practical analysis. Also religion has been reified (or made into an object) when in actuality it doesn't even exist outside of our belief in it as a single category.

The guy tried to make a critical point in asking Mouse what makes us pick and choose which scripture to follow v. which ones to make an excuse for our shortcomings. Not enough diversity in this convo at all. The guy was making a great point that was completely missed.

Check out the council of Nicea.
John Henrik Clark
Ray Hagin
Anthony T Browder
Dr. Asa Hilliard
Dr. Yosef Ben
Dr. Frances Cress Welding
Check out all these people so we can break the chains. The Bible and religion keeps us in bondage.

I can't stand I'm spiritual people choose a side you cant be like I think religion is bad then cherry pick what you want to follow

Can we please get some actual atheist on these panels for these discussions. I'm sick of hearing from I'm spiritual people and wishy washy agnostics

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