Session 3 – Theologies and Sects: Pluralism and Tolerance, Blasphemy and Minorities

Session 3 - Theologies and Sects: Pluralism and Tolerance, Blasphemy and Minorities

they tried to pretend they didn't even know it they acted as if they had nothing so there's a different type of denial one is denying that Rasul Allah he Sunland Azam is confirming which you have second is to deny you even have it in the first place for him to confirm it right so this is but not all of them so the is English translation has put the word party okay but you have a sense actually in this look when to come repeatedly that this concept of the fabrica division schism parties groups is something that happens in the al-kitab and then finally then we're gonna come to the hadith where the profits on don't know whether summer says that's going to happen to you also it's gonna happen to the Muslim Ummah as well okay now and this is slightly an answer to actually a question that somebody asked yesterday shot a local min a Dean so Allah Sparta has established for your sake for your benefit from what the same Dean a Dean mal wa sahbihi knew huh that the same Dean that he the same Dean that he enjoyed upon nabi Nurul Islam the same Dean that he enjoyed upon Newell a salon all right well of the Ohana a lake and that which we have sent by we means Alice Mantella in all her his maybe I should explain this she also when Alice Ponte uses the we form the singular plural form a lot allah is one he uses the plural form to denote allah tala in all of his majesty his attributes his singular Zod in all of his savate so one is an act of Allah so Allah every act emanates from his out from his essence and some of the acts are specific to one of his attributes so for example if allah tala sends his muffler on us the mikvah is coming obviously from his essential being his earth but also then specifically from his attribute of mug farah but those things that allah small tell does that are not unique to any single attribute are coming everything comes from his that his essence but are from the totality of his attributes so he uses the plural form this is something very few people have seemed to understand so the way you would try to put this english when allah tell says we means i a little I'm speaking on sort of putting English words to explain how a lot Allah's speaking in quinault dream I Allah Allah in all my might in all my majesty in all my knowledge in all my forgiveness and all my wisdom in the totality of all my attributes those that I've revealed to you and not reveal to you those that are known only to me I sent down ye upon you oh hey not awake all right so in English how do you capture all that so the most translators they just go with me and most people ask what does it mean that Allah Tala refers to himself as we and Quran as opposed to I now you understand all right okay okay Lamar was saying IBM brahim of a moose our ISA he knew the same so this is this is this is the Quranic understanding also of this notion of Abrahamic faiths this is not a Western concept yes this is a Western concept it's also Quranic concept that's a whole separate talking presentation how much a las plantas emphasize nabi ibrahim alaih-is-salaam in kurani Karim and definitely bring Emily son is the forefather of Musa they saw easterly some to be a cream son no they said all right there Aniki medina that each and every one of them were enjoying that what that you should remain steadfast and firm in I am on top of Dean well add that the father CUFI he well that a fellow CUFI he and there should be no division schisms made in that team so in this verse a jealous mountain saying it's a Dean of all of the unbe are one therefore when the Ali kitab rejected say not a Sulha law he saw no know how their son they were doing the factory making a division that we have our deen which is may be torah or injeel our scripture our deen and this is some other deal they're trying to say the spark they're separated and also saying no no no this is the same all right okay okay and then the rest of the verses about the mushrikeen all right Gabriella machinima the who whom allayed that it really weighs heavily on the idolaters that how can they respond to that which you invite them to okay allow us to be aleyhi my yesh ah oh well yeah a human when you need a lot Allah selects and chooses for himself whomsoever he wants and he guides to him my you need whoever has Inaba whoever has a longing turning to Alice penomet Allah there but that's not our topic for today all right we're not the follow cou Allah mean body major a homo ilma and the aleca table did not dutiful look except after they had knowledge who knows didn't do his out of ignorance they did it after having knowledge after ill and the same thing is going to happen on oma the reason I'm mentioning all this to you is that when Nivea cream Sun know who or they were something's gonna say in their days that the OMA is also going to split into these sects in the same way that the Jews and Christians did what is that way Allah tells explaining Quran so the Muslims were also split into sects when after they have ill not because of ignorance after they have knowledge all right and why Balian Baena home Balian boehner home in self-serving malice and spite and envy and hatred for one another so it will happen with film and with buggy there's the same way it's going to happen with the believers okay well Ola Kalimantan Sabich at me Rebecca allah awj Allah Muslim Allah kudiye Bey know whom okay so this is you can understand maybe in a sense to answer the question that some people liked and so I'm sort of anticipating some questions that may come later that why'd you know this fountain I'll make it like this why didn't he decreed in such a way that Islam never split into sects if Islam is the final region perfect listen absolute legend all of humanity has to be called to it wouldn't have made more sense now but this is so remember what I told you yesterday Allah Tala has every act of Allah Tala has to be understood in light of all of his attributes every act his attributes his attribute of wisdom is a comb hawk you mean you may think using your echo that it would have made more quote-unquote sense to you had a little decreed that the Ummah always remain exactly the same that everybody prayed exactly the same that everybody had exactly the same theology it was in the wisdom of Allah font Allah that this should not take place and this will all be settled later on the day of judgment and it's the same answer which is a bit more intended here in the verse same answer for why with the person has yesterday that why are they multiple religions this is the rule in which develop and Allah and because we know he is infinitely wise so we know every decision and act of his has infinite wisdom all right in the Lenina over in the Latino youth hockey table I mean bad to him laugh he shut him in whom Arriba so basically those who have inherited the Kitab after them aren't shucks there in doubt skepticism uncertainty suspicion regarding it or now this is a verse this is now the verses that are related to the believers okay the initial meaning of this verse is actually Alice Paul tells is initially talking about the early OMA Sabich and I'm ready Allahu Allah is mine but you should also know the important thing to tell you every verse in Quran has room in it every verse in Quran has a more general Universal meaning and application to it even if it was indeed revealed in a specific occasion of Revelation or a particular context or in a particular incident in the life of the prophets on the law this element the fact that it's in Quran which is a bazillion aprea ternal eternal Kalam speech of Allah Fontana means it has a universal more a more broad meaning and that's one of the great acts of scholarship to extract those broader principles those general principles and then to apply those general principles to today's context which is different from the current context today's context today's circumstances today the instance that is why you need a Sawbuck scholarship you can't just get that from transition a person who just does transition has no idea even it was this ayah revealed in makka mukarrama madina munawwara before fateh makkah after Fatima come before Hydra after Asia they have no they don't just translation does not alone give you the ability to extract correctly without making mistakes what are the universal principles in this ayah then to apply those universal principles to current context this is why you always need living scholarship because yes we accept that the context just changed the circumstance does change muslim scholars don't deny that we've entered the 21st century but the universal teachings of Quran don't change right okay there so what does it move happily like Jimmy ah that you should all grasp fast hold fast Jimmy uh all together so this notion of Jimmy gema gema all right the collective plurality grasping the unity right of the collective hub lillahi is a figurative expression literally habala means rope right so rope is basically like for example if somebody's drowning and you customer rope that's their lifeline that's their only source of salvation is the rope Allah Allah has sent down a hobble which is deen of islam throughout almost the game and a person has to grab onto that okay well add a fellow coup and do not let yourself be divided here it's a little bit of a stretch to say in this ayah Allah tell about the photo coup means the later theological sects which I will show you the community here it's a simple linguistic thing be steadfast and be together don't let yourself be divided okay both groan it Mottola alaikum and remember the tremendous bounty of allah small Tala that he sent upon you in kuntum ah dah on so this is about the house and hazard the two tribes in madina munawwara before they accepted islam they were actually enemies to one another and then because of the Baraka blessing of deen of islam they became united to one another and then they even accepted Muhajiroun people from makamaka make united with them so to locals who couldn't get along together got along with one another and got along with other people right this is this transformative nature of the deen of islam okay fala have been here but so the rest of the verse is honest right I was just very quickly alphabetical to become for us bottom bhanumathi he is wanna so Alice Montella softened the feelings and placed outfit and love and affection and mercy tender feelings between your hearts and then you woke up in the morning I mean literally it means you big then became literally means you woke up in the morning means you then became due to this bounty in favor of Allah Allah if you wanna write you became brethren to one another fellows companions to one another so this is explaining the benefits of not having sectarianism and not having skepticism all right the rest of the verse is there okay well dr. Koon ocala Dina to follow coup Wachtel of whom embody my jaw a home Albania not that don't be like those people to follow aku who split up into visions walked Allah who now in other words come here they laugh even that Allah doesn't want it still laughs right after they received clear signs right now literally this verse is actually referring to the a lakita alright and this is another principle of this year that the verses in Quran that are referring to the most Rikuo idolaters pagans or aversion to the people of scripture they cannot be applied in their same strength to believers but they contain lessons in it that you can extract for believers so the next part we like a little Audubon a theme this doesn't apply so there was an extreme and I will be showing you that later an extreme particular sect not everyone but there's an extreme branch of Wahhabism which said that because of this verse well okay there's XD laughs in the hanafis in mr. laugh with one another therefore they will get what who like a love on a team hmm but it's not like that right you can take lessons from this that it's not good to have extra laughs and I'll also explain to you there's a difference between Calif and if they love tell off means to have differing opinion if they laugh means to have opposition to one another due to the differing opinion so the Khilafah is acceptable in religion in scholarship and not really I'm sorry caliph is acceptable in scholarship because obviously there will be multiple perspectives different interpretations that scholars bring to bear but this should not be a means of st laughs between them all right and for the majority of history let's take for with it for example within the Sunni theology the different legal epistemologies which is offensive means for the you Pakistani is prefer to use the term schools of thought I've never been fond of that but I've put that in the presentation for your sake I rather call them collective legal epistemology still a field one another they had different understandings of certain legal principles right and then their application but they're not meant to have XD laughs another another that I meant to oppose one another all right and that is what Alice Mountain was referring to here in the Quran and again remember the reason I'm showing the verses in Quran about ethnic Adam is because the hadith that is going to come is going to say this phenomenon is going to happen in the Ummah in this in the manner in which it happened like it happened with all right okay in the Lavina Fela Kuti Nahum McConnell Shia Xian Xian Xian indeed those who follow Kadena home that they create divisions in their very Dean so now this is about theology that it's not difference in law it's not difference in interpretation of Quran it's not difference in grading of it is difference in Deen means a good thing is called a theological difference difference in core theological beliefs you can call it a kyod in Arabic all right and now you have another word so you'll be had thought up off right we've had a steel of root is Harlem saw and now you have another interesting word and it's not really my topic today but it's actually very interesting that all of you know the Muslims OMA the 1.5 billion Muslims on earth are split into two main groups Sunni and Shia and you would at least raise a question that why in the world would you want to use a name for yourself a word that Allah Tala has mentioned in Quran in a negative way and unless I said that don't do this right in those who start and those who do this let's do a less time in home fie Shaitan in them I am Elohim illa llah some my uniboob a Meccano yes a loon so a few things to understand here all right first of all allah allah is telling say not a suit because again remember again this verse is about the aleca table this verses none of us sunnis and shias okay the word shia is being used in a lexical linguistic sense Allah Allah is telling say no to Allah he's awesome that you have nothing to do with them less time in home free shake all right you don't have you have no role in this no part in this you know what to deal with them they're all splitting up into many different Christian denominations Jewish denominations they're taking different reactions to you they have issues with one another they're all of them have issues with you you have nothing to do with that innama mhmm illa llah indeed their matter is to be referred to Allah subhana wa taala you not below home and he will ultimately means and on the day of judgment that he will inform them be mcconnell yes alone about the reality of every single thing they did now if you take this verse and you extract the principle from this and apply to muslim sectarianism it's the same thing in other words in this world so let me maybe i should speak him is floor now because i did all this faster that the other things not i could speak to you a bit slowly all right in this world you are not going to be able to entirely absolutely decisively categorically resolve the issue of sectarianism within the muslims the existence of sectarianism is the will and wish of allah so allah ultimately if allah tala wishes on the day of judgment he may just send everybody to dinner who is in within the core theology that's coming I'm going to show you there's certain limits every religion has limits of Tolerance has tolerance has pluralism but has limits to that tolerance and pluralism every listen has borders and boundaries ok I will assure you that in detail throughout a bit later on today but anyone and everyone who is within those broader limits but may be viewed as having some type of division from one another Allah Tala may it's a loved one he may just send all of them to Jenna but he may also do this he may inform them of what the truth was and he made to both he made do both all right okay similar minerals in Africa Dena McConnell Xie could lose his opinion I thought this case isn't yet fourth word so the full rock after laughs Shia and now his B is alright Makana Shia culo his bimba malady him for a boon alright so again from those who slept there Dean and you can see this in some ways I mean I don't want to pick on the mick isn't entirely true but some extent those of you know about the current state of global Christianity there are a lot of to the word they use a denomination right so the first broad split is Catholic Orthodox Catholic and Protestant alright within the Orthodox you've got the Greek Orthodox Russian Orthodox Coptics etc Catholic is pretty much one actually umbrella okay there may be different schools of interpretation and scholarship but you have the Catholics they all accept the Pope all right the different Orthodox schools have their own like Pope equivalent I Patriarca all right then you have the Protestants the Protestants those of you more aware you spent any time especially in America have a lot of different denominations you have the Baptist's you have the Presbyterians you have the Lutheran's you have the Unitarians quite interestingly we're a bit more into tawheed you have more men's you have it goes on right and interesting every one of them is truly happy all right remanded a.m. ferry wound right that's you very happy in content now some people say this that oh well you know look all these Protestant different denominations they all get along fine they're all happy and they get along well with the Catholics which is not always exactly true by the way in terms of their deal religious scholars definitely have you know very interesting discuss from another right and if you know anything about history a lot of the wars in Europe were fought based on religion a lot right and and most recently perhaps Ireland is the case of Protestant versus Catholic fighting okay but there anyway so this is another word right that I wanted to show you okay yeah now the last place I want to show you the last verse and then we're gonna do the famous idiots and then I'm going to give you some comments all right this is a verse in which this is a verse in which the word is going to come far rock off the word will come but here it doesn't mean actually and this is why I'm pointing it out in this verse it does not mean sect or theological group or theological division okay this verse is about the believers wah McConnell my noona lien guru kapha that it does not befit the believers in other words the believers shall not they should not what the young through kapha that they should all the believers go out entirely so this was a verse actually in Medinah period about going out to defend the deen of islam against the hostile aggressors pagans of Makkah who were sending their armies toward Medina menorah to attack and kill the prophets on the lawless element and destroy an eradicate Islam from the face of the earth so now that I've told you the context you would understand that at that moment all the companions all the Sahaba in madina munawwara felt that we should all go out to meet that army right so that a lot Allah sent revelation to the prophets on the law the Salam part of grant and said whoa McConnell my noona lien Farook kapha No all the believers should not go out should not March fourth entirely all of them should not do that what fellow land nifer I mean cool if Erica team in whom da ever get another word now that has come tyfa so every you can say it's him he's using the word contingent you can say group from every furka so I will actually suggest you from every clan tribe cultural group linguistic group All Hazards mahadji Ansar from every Tabaka if you rel from every socio economic social cultural linguistic ethnic strata of the Ummah of the Sahaba right there should be a group not just one there should be at alpha a few individuals from all of them that stay back that don't go forth to defend what will they do the ones who stay back Lea to go hoof it deed they should get the off today what we call Fick taco is the act of learning understanding analyzing thick the v thick means deep understanding of religion that's is legal such as law complete under scholarly Scholastic understanding of the Quran and Sunnah so a lot Allah in the Quran hot the profits unknown or whatever cinnamon some become that scholarship and scholasticism is a decade dedicated activity it is so full-time that even if it's money jihad this group should stay back and not go forth right the second thing that becomes clear from this verse is that it's a particular community so some people say oh you know there's no particular scholarly group in Islam there is even though miles come and go wrong right let alone out it has come many times in Hadees okay why Bible day what are they going to do so they're gonna stay back and they're gonna do the go for Dean then well you know como home is our larger alayhim and when their Sahaba come back their comb their people their jama'a their OMA comes back from defending Islam this group who stayed back will do involve in czar means they will be the ones who warn them and guide them so within the Quran it is clear that a lot of creating two categories of Sabah one will be the scholarly class who is full-time dedicated to thicken the and they will be the ones who guide the others the others will be guided by them warned by them literally okay Elohim yeah Haruna so that they can be protected in garden against any been doing anything Salafi shut up against Vick going astray in any manner alright so the reason I want I highlighted this to you is that because some people wrongly say that the word fear cahier means sect hear the word FICA is just being used for different strata of that society at that time all right now comes the famous cities this is like though this is like the sadly speaking this is the most famous cities in Pakistan amongst university youth if there's the number one question probably ever get came yesterday also it was not even the topic just it came yesterday also everyone even the topic yesterday the famous it is about that 72 out of 73 sects 73 sects 72 going one way not a Jahannam and one going into Jenna right okay so let's look at their cities it's a little bit small perhaps for you here I put all the Arabic and oh sorry which one what began but I'm gonna talk about this oh my goodness so I okay you can put part two in there whew okay all right in Dominica become an ethnic kitabi if Naraku our scent Aeneas of inna Milla that indeed the I had a guitar prior to you if Naraku for a cough split up into 72 different sex right we're in the higher Hill Mila and indeed this meal of millet of Islam right well so dr. aku a Lhasa Arthur was Sabine will divide itself into 73 divisions since Danny was sober enough you're not seventy two of them will be in the Hellfire well walk it up and one of them feel Jenna will go to Jenna will heal Jamaa and that one that will go into Jenna has been called l-jamaa l-jamaa alright Lissa death has been narrated in several different places one is in the collection of the sunan of abu dawood where it is under modern numbering systems number four five nine seven and it's great in it has been graded as here by eben aha juris Kalani as the brothers by affinity mia as well as by a shot to be and i'll a rocky alright and it is also narrated by imam Adil medium Allah Tala in it of Jami and in the modern numbering scheme that is a date number two six four one but in that narration of your mama Timothy there's some extra words and the extras that come at the end ma Anna alayhi wa as hobby nobody want the last sign of the first one we're not on the new onions okay I got it from current society take it it's there and it's called all right so yeah okay all right okay so there's the Arabic that I recited for you these are the references of without al-hakim it's also there is a monster truck alright and then the different Allah ma of hadith who have created it to be authentic and sound okay so this is an English translation I made for you indeed before you the people of scripture that allocate are divided if Naraku into 72 religious denominations milah and indeed this religious community this milla any of Islam will divide into 73 sects 72 of which will be in the Hellfire nod and one in heaven Jenna and that one will be quote the Gemara alright the following extra words are in the narration transmitted by Timothy which ours omana alayhi wa ha be and that which I need the prophet sallallaahu some M upon and my companions as hobby' are upon alright okay first let me explain this a little bit so you also understand and that is that say notice Ulala he son la la la missile on many times said certain things more than once and you can imagine like this type of teaching seems to be a very important teaching and would be something that he would have said on more than one occasion like any other human being even say not a Sulha law he's on the know who were they were some of them would not necessarily always used exact same words in the exact same sequence but he would say the same thing so let's say I teach the same course in some other country right even with the same slide same notes same slide same notes I won't say the exact same words right and sometimes the prophets unknown know who they were Solomon gave some additional knowledge more normally the olam Avedis understand that this happens to a number of reasons one reason it may be that at a later time when the prophet salallahu alaihe wasalam had said this a lot allah by that time had given him this additional information so he gave these additional words sometimes another reason can be that there are different narrators of the hadith one of them remember up to here and the others remember the noe there was a few more words right now the hadith scholars in that case understand that then that was just one occasion but they still preserved the report of the first one who only heard up to the first point just as a matter of historical record because for them the part of the hadith activity was just to document the historical record of everything that every companion narrated that they heard the prophets on the law all ISM set whether they heard it partially or they heard it completely and is by documenting what every companion heard that they were then able to comparatively assess all those companion reports of nurses with one another and then determine the gratings and authenticity of hadith and the textual and to give a hierarchy to the textual variants of Hadees all right and if you don't understand that there's no problem because this is enough for you to understand that hadith scholarship is an extremely very fine science okay all right now what did say not a Sulha law he said no no who are they was on a mean by these 73 cents some people have tried to track this historically right so the first thing you would do is let me see if I can study the history of Judaism and the history of Christianity and study the different denominations and that they have and tried to see which one of them were really based on core theological beliefs and then I'll call it a separate sect right but that's not something I've done right I cannot honestly today tell you what's the core theological difference between a Baptist and an Anglican and a Presbyterian and a Lutheran I have no idea it's not my field of study but there are some who have tried to identified those 72 it may be a worthwhile research project maybe we will learn something from the way that they split up and maybe that could we could guard ourselves against having such schism and separation ourselves secondly others have tried to look at the second part of the death historically and looked at from the earliest period of Islamic history up till now what were the different groups that emerged who had unique or different or contradictory core theological beliefs right and so some have tried to make a list of them and obviously they're trying to make the list reach number 72 right and obviously they want that whatever they choose to follow should be the one right okay now what are some broad principles we learn from the cities number one is what I told you which is coming later is that there is a limit and here clearly 72 have crossed the limits so they have somehow this is not there's nothing to be tolerant some through ilysm and throughout in diversity there's 72 groups in history but there's still the future to come right so that's one of the flaws but an historical method assumes it's already been done they may still be many things but you don't know what's going to happen to now the day of judgment but we know that whatever in the entire lifetime of the OMA there will be 72 different theological and I keep saying this to you it's an issue of a key that's not an issue of kalam or fake or tasawwuf and I will show you some of that that's not what this talking about David is talking about in theological beliefs okay all right but the core listen to me get is yes a person could cross the boundary and end up in a theological belief that puts them into the fire of John all right now obviously the second the additional words everybody would understand that that obviously Anna said not a Zulu law he saw no no Sam himself is obviously going to be in that one group that goes to Jenna and is a sob his companions at least for Sunnis right are going to be amongst those who go into Jenna so this is also if you will the very one of the I wouldn't say the first but one of the fundamental theological differences between Sunnis and Shias part of core Shia theology not talking about secular liberal english-speaking she are friends that you may have in Karachi I'm talking but core classical Shia theological texts right not one of them all of them for example if I told you there's something that is written by Imam Ghazali and Shafi and abou Nisa and it's in all the commentaries of the hadith of bokhari and all the Sunnis calls of the Sea Road right if it's some teaching that is found in all of classical and medieval Sunni scholarship then even as a historian it would be fair to call that sunni theology right as a researcher how will you identify what is quote unquote sunni theology you will go and look in their books just like that if you want to identify what is in quote unquote Shia theology you're not gonna look at what may be contemporary secular liberals years today may say or think I believe you're going to go to historically you're going to go to the classical and medieval scholastic works all of the classical element evil sheer works say other than and they differs between them and the number seven nine eleven thirteen these are some remembers that I remember when I went up one time readers it's a very small number of Sabah who are going to go to Jinnah and then the vast majority of Sahaba are going to go to John them right so this is a core theological difference so you're getting an idea of what a theological belief is okay now let's move to the next one right okay so I want to give you some examples then from what we do know in terms of history actual groups fit up right actual groups who had actual theological beliefs which they themselves wrote about nobody is attributing something to them they have their own books their own authors they wrote and defended their particular theological beliefs right so from the Sundays is the first line I will give you example of some jamia kadriye cara mia and there are others okay job area so they are these are groups that existed within the very first three centuries of Islam and they articulated very particular theological beliefs for example them some of them believed in free will only some of them believed in predestination only some of them had other theological views about Allah small dollars attributes some of them had theological views for example damage estimate they are not mentioned here they thought a lot Allah had a physical body and also had a physical hand right so they actually ventured in the realm of theology it's not the fear not explanation existence of Quran it's not commentary of hadith it's not legal interpretation its theology right similarly in the Shia world you have these groups if not Shari otherwise known as Joffrey in English they're called 12 verses they have a very expanded theological concept of the Imam of what is an imam so it's a new category of person so for Sunday's there's unbe ah there's Sahaba there's olya we have some categories right they have another and they're on all these words are in Quran right here Sahab the word Sahaba it in in that census and Quran but the reference to the Companions Allah dynamic those who are with you they referred to in Quran okay zadie and a body and Ismaili some of the differences between and among summers which Imams they accept where they think the imam ax ended so for example the zaydis think the imam ended at number the fifth one they smileys think that your mom and at the seventh one as you know even in the city then there's a further split between them between out of honey and out the bora-bora right and it's not sure you believe the imam and in a twelve so this is an example it's not my topic for today who they are and what they are right but just to show you that historically clearly this is a phenomenon that has happened in muslim history that there were groups that I did self identified themselves as groups selected these names for themselves and believed and wrote and defended particular theological beliefs that were different from all of the others around them okay so this is something that has happened that is what is called sectarianism in Islam that is what is called the in Islam that is what is being referred to in all of those verses of Quran that I'm that I'd showed you earlier and that is what the prophets unknown know how their son was referring to when he says that this is going to happen in my Ummah in the same way that had happened in the people of the book any of the Jews and the Christians all right this should be contrasted so I told you I use the favored expression of the Pakistani schools of thought all right schools of thoughts are not fika are not the felucca so or do this is not your covariance because these are not different theological beliefs so the first type of school of thought is called Kalam I showed you a bit of this yesterday Kalam is the philosophy of religion it's not a kind if Kalam it's different it's the philosophy religion right so why does evil exist they may have given slightly different answers as to what is God's wisdom behind creating evil right they may have different answers on how much evil can you rational defy right they may have a slightly different answers in the fifth rock and the Ritalin or everything to be evil or there's a nutria on certain things etc etc right this is Kalam so the three famous groups in so now I'm talking about the SUNY school of schools of thought so a sherry matter ad in a theory a theory but they all are considered within the one theological group and obviously they all consider themselves in the l-jamaa all right in effect they were broadly speaking five that have survived until today but they were about 15 or 20 that existed throughout history different schools of legal sought so the five that have survived today or the Hanafi Maliki Shafi unbeli and what I call the day me and they called themselves the son of e so those who basically follow even a taymiyah and AM L Josie Ramallah Tana others which did not survive were for example the school of Saffiano sorry even engineer EE and others okay Zachery as well right up on the buddha Doudna without a degree who later had one successor in Haslam but then after eben hasn't died away there are several others right but I just gave the names of the ones that still exist to some extent a Shari Matuidi and a sari still exist to a large extent Australian Matuidi Kalam was really an effort to repeal the Greek philosophical movement and the Motta's Ely school and when they were successful at those two things they're still around but they're not that active anymore and if you remember from yesterday I suggested we actually need to return to this discipline known as Kalam in order to address atheism agnosticism and scientism and other challenges to faith and Iman so that is one very important aspect of animal Kalam is to refute challenges to Iman from people outside the religion all right and that is something that a shame authorities did the other is recite response to them the other is where you can say a bit more conservative traditional Orthodox textual based movement and they felt that in the sincere defense of Iman and faith that a series especially the series took things a little bit too far right and that we need to bring them back and be a bit more literally grounded in the texts all right and they weren't altogether wrong they weren't altogether right the truth lies basically with all of these and I would say the same thing and Fick there's no single one thick that has all of the truth in it but overall all the truth lies and all of these things so the Tamim and Salafi movement again was a reaction against some of the certain excessive tendencies within Hana FEMA Lakeisha fees and on blades too overly rigidly adhere to any particular legal principle right but you know those tendencies were not as pronounced or as widespread as some of the Tamiya and Salafi rhetoric suggests but they were present so the response did not come out of nowhere it was not entirely unwarranted and again today I would suggest a blend of all of this really is where the truth lies I'm not saying bland that for people like you you can mix and match mother that's something I talked about in the winter study course one when is that when when is it deep scholar reality and one of the what individuals do right okay for example the chiffon valise Pont Allah lies in a blend of Western medicine homeopathy acupuncture Indian herbal medicine Greek herbal medicine and who knows many in African herbal medicine and many other things but for you as an individual to blend six seven types of those medicine in your one body is not the course of action I would prescribe for you okay all right now remove – well done I had some more comments on this that hair okay we'll go ahead me because you're not yeah non-muslims so obviously non-muslim is something there's not an issue of sectarianism right that is something that's so now you may see okay let me pause here now now I want to show you a very subtle thing I'm just gonna ask a question and I'm not gonna try to claim to give you the answer today every theological sect that will arise in the millah because if you look at the hadith the Prophet also did say it will be from inside the millah right so the millah means Islam every theological every one of those 72 theological sects and a lot Allah knows best ultimately which ones they are that are going to arise from within the millah of Islam that are going to go to the fire of Jahannam does it necessarily mean that they are non-muslim not necessarily right because we have hadith about individuals who are Muslim who will go to the fire of genda right there's a Muslim who does in fact say not a Sulha law he's on the law listen I'm on the Mirage where otherwise everything he saw was absolutely amazing he was also given a peek behind the scenes look into a future temporal dimension of what will be happening in Jannah and they were Muslims in their individuals I'm talking about communities not schools of thought or theological sects the Muslim who did zina the Muslim who did Reba there's so many hadith about individual Muslims right so we know to remember if you those of you here in the very first winter study course if you remember I did something called the workshop so I said that you have to understand all of the verses of Quran and all of the deeds of the Sunnah in light of one another so from other Hadees we know that there will be individual Muslims who go to Jannah otherwise if we thought that only non-muslims go to Yanam then we would have to say yes every one of those 72 sects must be declared non-muslim on what basis because they're going to dinner right it could be that some of those 72 sects or half theological beliefs that are so far outside the acceptable borders even how loosely how much tolerance you use I told you everything as limits so what I'm gonna show you in the second half today is that we don't know for sure about every theological sect but we do know for sure about some of them and one of them we definitely need for know for sure about is this group that is known as MERS eyes in Cantonese okay so that will come in part two I will have to show you the limits of theological tolerance and I will show you what those borders are and I will actually try to show you that you cannot stretch them any further any theological sect that definitely clearly crosses that border about that theological sect we will easily say that they are no longer Muslim then there may be some other theological sects that they have some theological beliefs that are very different but we're not sure if it puts them outside the border or not but it may still put them in the fire beyond them for who knows how long right and therefore we still need to invite people away from such theological beliefs now you have you understood this right okay then there's another group of humans non-muslims that it's not a question they themselves say they're not the solution I mean there's no I mean it's nothing about trying to figure out right as you would know when you hear these statistics that there's almost 7 billion people in the world and 1.5 billion of them are Muslim that means that 5.5 billion people in the world themselves identified themselves as not being Muslim I think all of you understand that right okay this is not saying this is not intolerance or right this is a this is census data this is a social reality okay so the first type of non Muslim is the non-muslim who's living in a non-muslim land in a non Muslim majority so we and today we live in a world of nation-states all right what does this home say about them zom says you can look completely peacefully with them you can be in complete peace with them you can trade with them you can meet them you can visit them you can do with them it just says one thing it says a few things number one if they attack you physically or in some other way they try to attack your religion maybe we're trying to spread some type of Western hedonism through some type of hmm you know all rated or x-rated media right you must counter that effort you must counter any counter and repel every effort of theirs if any such effort exists to the extent it exists to threaten your religion and in fact if you ask me in this day and age it is actually much more a war of ideas and a war scholarship all right no doubt there are places in the world but their physical and justice is happening and then that would require a physical response and physical countering and physical repulsion but in a much broader scale it's a war of ideas and that's something I mentioned to you yesterday one idea that is being exported is atheism right and therefore now again we will we can have complete peace and trade and we can have lunch with the atheists but at the same time we're going to completely counter and repel the atheist ideology in order to safeguard and protect the Muslim individuals the Muslim faith from anything that can try to attack and undermine the village alright okay then there's another type of normal son who is living as a in a Muslim majority country to their novel some minorities and Muslim lands so this is one thing that comes up in a lot in Pakistan right so should be very clear that if you look in history there's not something new this is a very big mistake that people make they think this question of non-muslim minorities is something Jinnah discovered and therefore he made part of the flag white for 1,400 years this has happened in the Muslim world and there are many many noble examples of that I will give you to the Jews the Jewish historian saying that the three greatest periods of Jewish history was one obviously when they were the children of Israel you know before the time of the Prophet moments unknown even before the time of the Prophet Jesus he said listen I'll okay that was obviously the greatest period in life and the Quran Allah also says that that we had selected you over everyone who we had sent our special favors on you a lot Allah says that many times in surah Baqarah ii they say was the Jews who lived in Muslim Ottoman Empire and Muslim Spain means the second greatest period of our life was when we were live under Muslim rule and then the third is the contemporary state of Israel all right so means two out of three or when they were in living in their own juice day and the third one is when they were living in Muslim lands no doubt there if you also look at history there have been even between Jews and Christians even between Protestants and Catholics and yes also between Muslims and Christians many wars many incidents in which they did not get along peacefully whether you look at the Crusades whether you look at the Inquisition there are many things right at the same time there are many many incidents and this is the whole course actually this itself should be a whole course that is taught just purely from a historical basis but to learn from the lessons of the peaceful history to replicate that and to also learn from the lessons where wars are fighting took place violence took place to not replicate that right both you will find both in history all right so as far as non-muslim minorities in Muslim lands today they have every human right that every Muslim citizen has right now there's the only the only one question that sometimes arises is a can the non-muslim be the leader of a Muslim State a non-muslim could be the leader of a secular Muslim state a non-muslim would not be able to be the leader of an Islamic Muslim State but if there is any political entity or state that has chosen and Pakistan has not chosen that just by saying the word Islamic Republic or having the word Islam maybe a dozen times in the Constitution that's just words right Oksana's doesn't follow this right Pakistan is a secular Muslim State this is this is a separate topic to explain because the religious people maybe don't understand that and the secular people also to understand that the secular people always try to pray that they're victims and we're living in the stomach Republic of Pakistan whereas you know all the entire burocracy a secular judges are secular police is secular if you look at all the power holders and stakeholders in this country none of them are quote-unquote Islamic they may be Muslim I'm not saying what they are as individuals but operating on some Islamic model they're offering and totally other secular miles in fact very corrupt models that no new secularism either they're just corrupt right this whole country is just about elitism there are different types of elites where the military leads civilian areas bureaucracy elites and they're all basically trying to have a monopoly on the power and the wealth of this country that's your whole country in two sentences there that's a different topic or but if there was a society that forms a political community and they choose and they want themselves that the organization of that state and society should be based on Islam then obviously somebody who believes in Islam is going to definitely be better qualified than someone who doesn't believe in Islam to lead this project so then it would become one of the criteria for selection don't you see in the corporate world if you go into the interview and tell them that I do not believe in the vision mission statement I read on your website will you hire me what do you think they will do what I hire you there's no way they will hire you no way and that's just not to be the leader that's just to be a member of that organization imagine if you were trying to apply for the position to lead the organization which is the leader of the state right and you said I don't agree with your first principles I don't agree with your ethics your values your norms I may steer some of them but I don't agree with all of you I'll do means you convert to Islam right there must be something that a non-muslim doesn't agree with so then they're not as qualified for the project of leader of an Islamic state as a Muslim is and believe me 99.999% of non-muslims would happily accept this as well because they're very honest people don't say yes of course you know just like we wouldn't pick you to be the head of the Catholic Church right I say make me Pope right let's say I'm more onerous tribe I'm better I'll manage the Vatican Bank better I can give many reasons but there's one core reason why it can't be Pope I said well why cuz you're not guessing right do you understand that's it other than that absolute position of leadership can a non-muslim be vice president yes can non-muslim be any you know whatever anything else yes and if it's not a truly purely Islamic society and state then normal some can be leader also what difference does it make hmm all right okay hair but you know that that could be something we could discuss further all right but the point is to tell you that minorities in Muslim land there is no inherent discrimination or prejudice against non-muslim minorities built into the Islamic religion which is something that is often falsely spread not even is this falsely spread by non-muslims this is falsely spread by non practicing secular Muslims and that's a big tragedy right okay now comes the issues of boundaries and now we're going to gradually move our way to the blasphemy sure alright by up video to Nellie arena the sphere to Newman re-keyed AVI okay see that I'm an item to date currently taking it no okay here make them in Acadia that's fine boundaries alright so there's going to be two forces here that are playing one will be certain forces that try to expand the boundaries right and then the second force will be those which make sure that through expanding the boundaries and collapse so if I take a rubber band I keep expanding it that's one force but at some point I have to stop otherwise the rubber band will collapse it will no longer have any integrity itself it would become a broken rubber band so both forces are going to be here all right okay so the forces that obviously are going to try to expand the boundaries are the first for pluralism diversity multiplicity intolerance okay now pluralism has existed even in the lifetime of Satan Natas Ulala he suddenly know who they were Salam Sahab a Kaname him different much for on certain battle strategies on certain ways to how to negotiate terms of peace with the enemy right this is all there if you if you merge with Sita and he accepted that and he encouraged that and he was happy to hear that there even cases in which he would accept or agree with the advice given by one companion but then before the prophets on the law where there was some could enacted a lot Allah would send what in revelation and direct him to a different course of action right so in that sense pluralism and diversity is there multiplicity is are there L is missing their multiplicity all right now I'm you know these all these words are pretty much the same I'm using them for something different okay by multiplicity I'm specifically talking about groups now one is individuals right giving different opinions one is now you have different groups so I showed you that earlier for example a shurima to read the a3 Hanafy malarkey etc and in other ways also in many other dimensions your different groups okay so that there's always been multiplicity from the very earliest period of a slump they're supposed to have tolerance of another even within and amongst Muslims again this would be another semester course in history there have been cases where Muslims of diverse views living in a pluralist society and many of them multiple such groups got along peacefully and there have been cases in history where that didn't happen and they didn't get along peacefully and there were incidents of violence between and amongst them both are there in history I can both have to be studied right okay but that force that allows people to get along with one another is called tolerance now I want to make this clear tolerance still exists even if the other human being is a non-muslim tolerance the teaching of Thompson Islam is not only within an among believers and as I told you their histories and contemporary contacts where Muslims and non-muslims can live together and tolerate one another all right okay next two things however is that when it comes to a religion your Homolka law there has to be limits right and if you cross those in the myths that will be called what unbelief or kufur right now here there's two aspects one is the theoretical and one is the practical theoretically we may be able to call a particular a kena particular belief gopher am i necessarily going to practically apply that category to individual that's called takfeer right am i gonna actually declare someone or some group an unbeliever not these two don't always go sometimes you may do that and sometimes you may just say that it is unbelief and you may not apply it so I have to make that not every case of gopher leads to tuck fear most people think that no there there Azam assume that anytime you know that someone has a belief that constant unbelief you must then automatically immediately necessary to clear them to be an unbeliever right it depends on the type of unbelief okay so this is that's coming an afternoon session all right and again as you all are anticipating and I've already revealed to you one example of the kind of unbelief that not only is gopher but must be called out and declared as such is the Messiah Qadiani movement and belief all right no but so that I'm going to do in the afternoon session now this issue of blasphemy alright so here we have actually quite a lot of material okay so first understand the definition so there are many different aspects to blasphemy blasphemy can mean to actually blaspheme against Alice panettone to say some words that are inappropriate harsh foul about Alice Montana last week can be about the karana cream some of you may know they were incidents very very small minor incidents of one random not in any way representative right you should never think that because you see in the news one totally random isolated quack pastor in Florida burning a few pages of Quran right but that would be considered blasphemy against Quran right a third type would obviously be blasphemy against Saint not a Zulu llahi son-in-law who they were some them and there can be other ways you can desecrate somebody's grave you know so there's a whole range of things that a person could do right even under simple even secular liberals even basic human rights would view these things as offensive and wrong but the next question which comes the next line is which of these will be declared a crime all right now crime you can say one theological crime which is sin right religious crime means sin or second would be legally crime in terms of declared as a crime by the state means punishable offense right and in that case then what exactly will be the process what will be the evidentiary requirement what level of proof and evidence do you need to establish that the person is guilty of the crime but will the sentencing for that crime be what exactly will the be will be a fine will it be years in jail will be live from prism it will be capital punishment will be punishment by death all right and if it's a religious crime sin can they make Toba can they repent from that is there some process for them to repent to that or is it some type of sin that even if they repent for it doesn't matter they will still be doomed to be punished by Allah sponsor on the day of judgement all right so the religious sense of crime sin has a whole other than discussion that we have to look at and the legal sense of crime scene has a whole other discussion to look at then the next word which I put non-muslims is actually in Islam if a Muslim commits blasphemy against Islam in any of the ways I said its treated differently than if a non-muslim commits blasphemy against Islam this is another factor than to be looked at all right and then the final thing that you see their scholarly positions so the reason I put that is that because what you will see is that different scholars have different views because this issue of blasphemy is not absolutely definitively settled and decided by a lot Allah in Quran occurring and even and I'll show you some Hadees the issue has not been definitively decided by the hadith or the practice of the Companions and it is also not unanimous agreed upon by later fokaha later jurists so then if you take a step back in a different sense you're going to have tourism of scholarship diversity of scholarship multiplicity of scholarship some advocating for more tolerance some setting more limits some even declaring blasphemy to be unbelief all right now when you have such a wide range so I'm telling you this and I'm gonna start showing you some of it that when you have such a wide range that's going to occur so another question arises which is the next slide is that is there any sense that we will talk about the 21st century is there any sense that context will play a role is there any text sense that society what type of society this blasphemy occur right will that play a role there's any sense that the state if it's a more conical Islamic state it's a more secular state well that play a role in quote-unquote this notion of the global village universal human rights or that these things will have an effect on your society or your international relations or your dealings with non-muslim countries does that play a role or not play a role right some would say none of this plays a role some of it some of people will use this slide is that determine the determining factors for their position on blasphemy and some will try to see if it should be incorporated whether it should be incorporated and to what extent it should be incorporated and assign it a role but perhaps a limited role alright okay so let me show you now how some of this would work let me first show you some hadith all right okay so okay now another thing that happens is that I think all of you would know this that in the world of hadith and there's something I did for you in the first workshop three years ago is that there are different gratings of a teas right your ratings of a date in terms of their authenticity and their reliability a second type of grading of a date is in terms of its transmission how widely has been transmitted so the first grading is the most simplest baby grading is sahi Hassan life and mole dua rigorously authenticated and accepted has some very well authenticated and can still be used as a source of law life that it's weekly authenticated and therefore cannot be used on its own without any corroboration as a source of Islamic law but could be used for some historical value or for some Fethullah to mention the virtue merit reward of some nothing active worship right and then mole dua which means actively I Hadid that's a these scholars have realized is forged and fabricated so it's not a hadith actually right it's not something that the Prophet Sunnah or they were someone said in terms of transmission so a hadith that was narrated by so many Sahaba and so many tavini and Tabata being by the companions and their successors and their successors the first three generations of Islam the narration was so widespread in all three generations that is impossible now for this not to be absolutely true type of adidas camuto water then a hadith that maybe not have been narrated by so many companions but was narrated in their presence and lifetime by so many tobon and so many Tabata being that is called masseur and that hadith that was narrated by one or very few companions and Dobbin then that becomes known as a hover wa head or the plural of that is a hot the solitary reports and then the third aspect of Hadees is looking at the meaning and if the meaning is something that is aligned with the meanings that you find in Quran on the rest of the days is it somewhat aligned but somewhat different or is it entirely different what we call outlier is it a rib is it a complete outlier that the meaning and import and consequence of this Adid is not to be found anywhere and then the last is that is it Monica okay I'm using these not in technical terms but is it a meaning then not only is it an outlier it's not found anywhere it has a meaning that actually contravenes and contradicts meanings that are established in more rigorously authenticated and more widely transmitted hadith and the Quranic early okay so this was a quick summary of one-hour session when we gave you in the first workshop take care so all of this is going to come to play in the issue of blaspheming all right so let's look at some of these things so some of the hadith that have been quoted on this topic of the reason I'm actually not mentioning a corona cream is that there are some who have tried to argue that some verses lead to blasphemy law but in reality there is no verse that really specifically could lead to blasphemy law in terms of capital punishment no doubt it is mentioned in different verses of Quran that should not be disrespectful to the prophet sallallaahu there's some that you not even raise your voice above is so many things but there's no issue of sin crime Hellfire unbelief murder I mean death as punishment those things aren't anywhere in the Quran occurring okay so let's look at some of the Hadees so there's a death narrative by say ali radiyaallahu ta'ala anhu that the prophet sallallaahu whenever son said kill any person who abuses or curses or maligns any prophet and with lash any person who abuses curses maligns any one of my companions okay so this cities would suggest that if anybody blasphemes against any prophet not just the prophet moment maybe prophet jesus prophet moses the name islam is mine right they should be killed and anybody who maligns reviles curses any of the Sahaba they should be ripped and they should be lashed alright now what has happened is that this hadith has for example to give you an example imam uh the hobby room allah tala who's one of the greatest scholars of hadith he actually said this it is entirely baseless and false so one of the words he used for this is la la la whoo it has no true origin no true basis whatsoever alright you're you can think like ebony Hodgins Kalani any mama the hobby these are two of the most reputed evaluators of hadith okay so many mom of the Hobby says that the hadith immediately becomes largely discredited largely discredited okay alright but they haven't taken it to the level that is an outright forgery they haven't called it mo Lua right but it is largely discredited the point for you to understand is it discredit enough that it cannot be a basis it cannot be used as an evidence in scholarly discussion okay alright at the same time you have a hadith that is narrated by even embossed with your done on who that a blind person you need there was a Sahaba who was blind a companion of the Prophet SAW some who was blind he was unable to see had a servant who used to a non-muslim servant to assist them because they were blind who used to say bad things about the Prophet SAW no know who they were selling so this is a sabbia so the blind muslim woman she told that non-muslim female attendant servant to her that don't do that blasphemy don't say these things bad things about my profits and others to them okay now there's a very famous Indian scholar a lama Halil Mata Hari Ram Dalai Lama Halil Amazon and program today who wrote a commentary on the collection of Abu Daoud known as bezel Mizzou and he said that this hadith I mean in his commentary in the city he said that the position of Hannity feck enough effect is that a non-muslim who is living in a Muslim land if they commit this verbal blasphemy on the Prophet SAW no no holy solemn they should be given a toss here some type of judge Kathy or court-appointed punishment and they should not be given the death punishment all right and this is actually the position of the Hanafi juris that blasphemy done by a non-muslim is not something that merits the death penalty blasphemy done by Muslim should that merit the death penalty then apostasy apostasy means done by Muslim who leaves Islam should that merit the death penalty let me talk about that also a little bit right and then we can come back to this issue of blasphemy meeting / Anan all right so anyway so this hadith was in the collection of without in the modern numbering hadith number 782 that I just mentioned to you and I showed you the commentary of Allah Muhammad SAW Don Prudhomme today on this vide all right okay No blasphemy against the prophet salallahu alaihe wasalam many Olimar have viewed that the death penalty for that by muslim was done in a time when you had a complete Islamic state in society what does that mean that means a society the absolute definitive proof of the reality of Islam in other words one is it okay I individually believe in Islam but there's a question that can the religion of Islam does does the religion of Islam have enough guidance to truly establish a socio-economic just society for human beings if you have an Islamic state in society that establishes that so beyond the person's individual belief that's between them and Allah so Allah right there is now a second factor which is this Hodja the second factor that there is a ground reality a social reality an empirical reality that is it the real is a Hodja is a proof of the truth of Islam haqiqat of Islam Haqqani ative Islam so therefore when a person who as a Muslim already individually believed in Allah span Tala second they actually were living in a true Islamic state in society so they saw externally that Islam is true if they choose to commit apostasy and leave the religion this was viewed as a capital offense all right now the origin of this is actually at the time of Rasul Allah he son-in-law well there was someone and all the historians the olam of cedar say that the reason the prophet's sunnah' know how they were Selim first said this was that the manaphy kun so there was a group of people at that time who were Impostors they were hypocrites they were fakes they were pretending to be Muslim and then one thing they would do is they would pretend to be Muslim and then it would leave Islam and then they would go and tell people oh yeah you know I was with him for five years and I've left now that gives a lot of authority right so others sort of let's say you know other members of the crash were watching they didn't accept Islam initially they were going to watch right and they were going to wait and see okay what further revelation comes they're also waiting to see like I told you ground reality what exactly happens what type of community will these people be what type of society will they form right and if you remember this by the way to show you the link if you remember if you know your Quran well munafa kun is specifically also using Quran for the people of Medina menorah not all the people but this phenomenon of hypocrites increased the phenomenon hypocrisy and impostor believers increased in many menorah such that they also would go out and then come back from the battle and people would be also affected by that and thinking okay maybe we should not defend Islam alright so a lot of issues that were coming in madina munawwara and then what would happen is when somebody like that would then leave right they had credibility because they were claiming but that was a line they were never truly Muslim they were actually so it's not even about to see they weren't truly Muslim they were faking it so when the prophets on the law and they was selling he realized that this is what's going on and Allah Tala inspired him to create this punishment for apostasy at that time for this reason okay that's how it begins so now the mana fig because it's not really believer right and you've seen in quran that allah tala says the believers that if you really think you're on Huck why don't you ask for motes you should ask for death to come and you will never ask for death to come so this work this was the deterrent and this is part of what you if you if you look at this I called you criminal law today they say that a large part of punishments is to act as a deterrent so by creating this punishment of death for somebody who opposed to sizes right actually the profits on the law or they were so low was doing that as a deterrent because he knew a couple of things to listen to this very carefully he knew number one that the person who truly doesn't have Iman who is a fake impostor will always be scared of death and therefore they will all of them will entirely abandon this strategy of pretending to be Muslim they may still do that but they will abandon the strategies that after pretending to Muslim they will relieve Islam apparently so people lose their confidence in Islam and that actually also historical fact is the case that after Nubia cream someone know who they were salam made this a punishment for apostasy no one then left second thing he knew for a fact and you should also know for a fact and I definitely know it as a fact and I'm gonna suggest that all of you should accept it as a fact what that the prophets unlawfully is from knew as I also will claim that I know that no single true believer sahabi would ever leave Islam so actually what you call apostasy which is somebody who actually believes and then chooses to disbelieve that actually never even happened in the time of the prophets unknown Allah so do you understand this is a very important thing do you understand right now given that that actually never happened in the time of Saint others with Allah he's unknown all this element to what extent can we use his ruling later on to say because it does happen later on right and it does happen today and it happens in Karachi and it happens in New York and happens to Pakistan who go to America and it happens right I personally know people write that a person who did truly believe me may forget the level of practice but it truly believed they then truly disbelieve right that isn't there's no example of that from the sinner do you understand so the quest okay second so that's the first difference between a current incident and the Sunnah period second is the person who's doing that today is not doing it as a strategy to undermine Islam they're doing it because they themselves became doubtful skeptical and became an atheist I talked about this little bit yesterday so that's the second difference between what the prophets and the law some had in mind when he created the death penalty for apostasy and what happens today there is the person who does it today is do without that hood job he's not doing in Magni Medina menorah of the Prophet Sunland awesome he's not doing it in the Islamic Society in state he's not doing it where the reality and truth of Islam has been established as the social reality externally so these are three big differences between any case of apostasy today and the type of apostasy that the Prophet SAW no longer Salim was talking about beyond that I cannot take the discussion with you this is a discussion between I me and other Olimar although but I don't have to be there wallah ma can have on this right but these are the things I can just say things have to be looked at and things have to be deliberated over all right ultimately whether the senior ulama decide that yes all these things and maybe other things that they look at leads in to conclude that today the punishment for apostasy not be death or may even be that ultimately Olimar will look at these things and other things and decide no that today still the apostasy but it's very possibly should be death right this issue I will be talking a bit about tomorrow when I talk about traditional Islam of the 21st century filling the gaps right just remember this when I talk about okay so the same thing is about the Muslim doing blasphemy right so I did the more extreme one which is apostasy so obviously then the same if I'm telling you even that apostasy thing can be revisited so clearly blasphemy which is a lesser crime can be revisited interesting you would find in the works of the jurists if a Muslim so let's look at the religious crime aspect that if a Muslim did apostasy they didn't say you just immediately kill him or her there was this notion of rehabilitation right that okay they should be warned they should be guided maybe they some cases they might have to be imprisoned and in that imprison which would be a very light in today's terms minimum-security holding facility right in which they would then have a chance openly to ask their questions and express their doubts and then others would have a chance to try to address their doubts and address their questions some jurists had time limits on this some gave it no time limit but yes many of them did right and when the time limit ends or whatever if the person is unrepentant you should kill them but they were basing it on that Sunnah ruling which I told you is not strictly speaking we applied to this context because a theological question arises what's the real point of killing such a person right it doesn't really make any sense because allah tala said in the quran that you can't kill a human being right except for very very particular things so it's a question that what the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam said about that time and about that act is it really applicable today and this forget him in this day let's look at the time that's already you know in in medieval bugged-out right and the time that they were writing even in their context forget if in today's context right a more traditional person would argue against me by saying look the ulama were living in a context that was different from medina Menara they were writing this in 5th century baghdad they were writing this in 4th century damascus they were writing this in the 7th century Egypt they were they were aware at the time as it changed and they they no ever and you think that you know more than them they would have understood everything you have said also they knew this history that the Moslem did the punishment for apostasy before the Monarchs they also know that everything you said they know it and I would agree also denote right and then you know what they would say they would say bill even though they knew all that they still felt that the punishment for apostasy should be done but the point I would make there then it becomes clear however that that punishment then is the decision of the jurists it's not the Quranic punishment right and even they would agree it's not the Sun to punish me because the Sunnah punishment was for the munafiq apostate it's a jurist exponent now this is a very dangerous sentence I'm actually starting what I was gonna do with you tomorrow because normally I don't like to say this either because if I say this I've opened up the door for all of Hamdi and all of these other people who say everything is just the Juris law and you should leave everything right so there's a question mark here and I would just simply say this much in front of you although I'm actually saying it on record which I would not probably wanted I've probably said much more than I would want to say on the record I'd say we need to think about no because I've actually started a discussion with you which is not supposed to be had with you were supposed to be had right other all Imam but the point is that all Amash should at least sit and deliberate this and rethink it they may come to the same conclusion but there's no harm in looking at it afresh all right and unfortunately that hasn't been done to the best of my knowledge right on this issue of apostasy and blasphemy by Muslim so finally was the going back to the issue then of the blasphemy by a non-muslim and what happened very recently in Pakistan so in honey thick that's absolutely clear there's no doubt about that between any island even mostly Turkish money and audio of his was circulating when you had this recent case of alcian BV although that audio is recorded before the incident just in one of his classes in which he openly said clearly said categorically said that an Hanafi thick the punishment for a non-muslim who does blasphemy is not death and I showed you also an example of a dear Bundy scholar Holly laments autumn Bruin Anthony Wright who also wrote that in his commentary of a widowed however the Pakistani law was based was drafted not on the basis of honey which is that's a quite unusual because in Pakistan the vast majority of the citizens follow the Hanafi legal interpretation I don't know the details as possible somebody could research this and that this may be something that could be known but I don't know it myself at this moment exactly how and why the law was drafted in the way it was I would speculate but you should only take this as speculation not as knowledge that perhaps certain groups so because of speculating I want name who I think they are but certain groups may have tried to position themselves and posture that they are the great lovers of saint not a pseudo noise on the law is alum and that their great love for a saloon law he's unknown although some means that they will leave their own enough effect and pick another fake which has a more strict punishment out of their severe intense love for the prophet sallallaahu listen possibly this maybe if what happened all right now if you look at the reality then so so I'm actually going to I think you've understood from my comments now that not actually because I'm a conical Hanafi even without considering whose position it is I generally think that the true Islamic position is the a non-muslim who does blasphemy should not be punished by death right I think then okay now the second thing is when you move to the legal evidence it's very tricky how do you really establish what a person said now maybe there are multiple people who testified against them in this recent case again I don't know all the details because obviously I wasn't there I've heard different accounts of it so that itself is a problem then if you're a judge right that you're hearing different accounts how do you decide by different accounts but one account that I've heard and it appears not to have been entirely refuted is that they were out drinking they were out working in the field or something and it was hard and she wants to drink water and the Muslim women told her that oh because you drank from the cup now we cannot drink from your cup all right if that is the case then this itself is a teaching that is wrong Islamically this why because this is a teaching that has come from Hinduism this is from the caste system this is the teaching that there were certain people who were called Untouchables and I'm gonna lie it's gone away to a certain extent in India but unfortunately it's still there in the rural poor communities and that person who was an untouchable caste if they drink from a glass you could not drink from their glass so or in simple playground school playground terms the Muslim started it all right because they said this all she did was drink from a glass that's completely permissible human act right now then you have a verse in Quran agreeing but a lot on the says don't mock their gods lest they mock yours don't mock their religion lest they mock yours and all that doesn't go on to say that if you mock theirs and they mock yours then kill them right if this is the case because they did it on religious grounds they told her because you're Christian so maybe she shot back this is a context that has to be taken into account by any judge any Slawek scholar so she said what she said not out of hatred for the Prophet sunland honest alum not initial original hatred not initial deliberate blasphemy she said what she said in response to her own religion being attacked right fine yes all of us can say oh she shouldn't have replied you know how many times have you when somebody cut you off in the traffic you didn't go back and hornet him mmm how many times have you not I mean how many times do you mean you reply okay and these are people who are poor it's extremely hot they're sweating they're extremely thirsty it's a different it's a difficult physical condition for human being to be in right but she said then whatever she said all right and then these women okay now let's say let's say she said everything that she's alleged to say all the women then her true in their testimony so they are truly offering their testimony that she said their sentences right and she offered her defense the context I said okay if you were to ask me and I'm not saying I don't have that authority or capacity but let's just pretend I was the CAHSEE that's okay you know maybe one month in jail maybe you know keep her in one month in jail in order to calm things down partly to protect her from the others maybe try to explain to her that they were even wrong right and also explained to her that who the Prophet something awesome really was right and therefore that he also wasn't unworthy of the abusive words that you used right certainly whatever sentence she is termed into now two three four years I don't remember Ambe was years how much time she spent in jail that should be acceptable to anyone and everyone as not just reasonable if you ask me even too much of a punishment for what she was alleged to say what I would suggest to you is that love for a Sulha know he's on the law or they were solemn cannot be defined or confined by taking on one poor Christian woman right doesn't make any sense you know where did all these people I've never seen people protest poverty there are many so if you want to say you love the profits and the loss of them and out of love for him you're willing to go to the streets in protest where is your protest against poverty where were your protesting and so many of the social causes where were the protest against so many social injustice is where have you shown up and mass process and so many things are important then right you're absent in all of that and you are present for this but there is a certain sort of you can call hardcore extremists even one or two of you here like that you know I don't think any of you will kill me but I do know that one or two of you here definitely or is not gonna be happy about what I'm saying because it's a strange thing it's so in the one hand I'm happy to see the love for the Prophet SAW some that the ordinary Pakistani has that in of itself is encouraging that a hamdulillah they have a love for their religion and love for the Prophet in their heart but it saddens me and actually scares me to see how that pure emotion can be twisted and I suggest that it was twisted by certain people who were manipulators right and who have these movements and want to become famous and want to have mass followings and therefore want to show the state that they can bring out ten thousand people and I think it's unfortunate that people didn't realize that they were manipulated and I think it's also unfortunate that Allah MA didn't speak out about this incident now I've tried to figure out why they haven't spoken out some people who defend them to me say that well they didn't want to speak out because then that would cause do open the abreu rivalry in tension then again in every muster they would be fighting then again there would be all types of issues across the country maybe yeah Allah Allah you know but that has to because I can tell you from my own experience there were a lot of at least University educated people or university students who were confused they wanted to know is this true I mean what are we supposed to do what's the answer there's our love for the Prophet SAW some mean that we should be protesting against this decision and we should be upset because there's a certain group of scholars who are claiming that and thousands were following them and nobody else is telling us otherwise so we're confused so in cases like that I think that all about you have to speak out and you have to do some tobacco and all the small town that if you speak the truth a little of all let some others could not arise that you know there's gonna be now fighting everywhere in the country between these two different groups of Allah MA but maybe these ala ma have had experience in Pakistan which I could very well see now after stop records we have to break forth or it's quite likely that they have at the experiences before and they have spoken the truth in the 60s 70s and 80s and that led to even more problems and it could have happened to them once twice three times because I've seen that in Syria and Palestine I've seen this right that there have been times of a Lama has spoken the truth and unfortunately Allah Harlem how or why it makes things worse as opposed to making things better and I think that it if I was a group from a group of Allah more like that and we have this track record and experience then I would I could understand why then amongst themselves ELISA to be silent this time and I can't say that a hamdullah in this case they were proven right because as you see that no matter what the protests were alhamdulillah no single Christian was attacked no church was burned there was no loss of life no violence at least in Christian community I don't know they may have been one or two protesters who me I don't know what happened between the police and protesters right and now it's all calm down right it's just it's just music a few weeks so maybe they were silent for the reason I suggested too that in past speaking out led to further problem and maybe while they were silent they were sad about having to be silent so maybe they made even more dost Hellespont Allah and is maybe it's those very same Allah Mazda walls to Allah so Allah that has made everything resolve itself just in a matter of a couple of weeks right so now I'm also teaching you and also how to teach the secular liberal crowd that you know there's a lot of things that go on and the last thing I will say here maybe I will say this one I'd let me just get out of the way before czar the secular liberal crowd loved to mock all Mulvey's and all die Wallis because of the protests right and that is also actually called racism for example in America sometimes when there's police violence against African American or black people the Africa Manik American Committee riots like there's a mine when I was a kid too person Rodney King riots in LA if any TV commentator said this that look riding all black people are like this or use those scenes video see it imagery with scenes of the riding or breaking into you know setting cars on fire and said this that see the blacks are like this they would have been accused of extreme racism and fired from their job but here our Pakistani TV commentators can happily say all mobis are like this the elders are like this it actually racism bigotry and and anybody who does that is clearly not a liberal it's an illiberal they may be secular in terms of they choose not to practice Islam that's a separate thing and that's something I'll be explained to tomorrow that secularism and liberalism are two separate things and in the West the vast majority of secular people are liberal and in Pakistan and in Turkey and in Egypt and in Muslim countries the vast majority of secular people are illiberal and this and the type of news op-ed columns that were written in English language medium the type of news commentary on TV during this whole two-week issue of the Alsea Beebe case was a clear example of that all right so welcome that 109 I mean some Monica so we just have to go straight to us four-door saloon then you have a lunch break after that and then we will resume in Charlotte and at the end of the second session then again we will do the joint Q&A and discussion

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