Round Table | Part 4
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come to achieve you one of the quotes that I really really like from Todd is saying that an event is caused by error or not following procedure is like saying an object fell due to gravity it's always true it just doesn't tell us very much yeah so it's just not helpful information it's not that you know it's not that people will get confusing they're saying well so you're condoning you know things that just you know people are not following preceding no no the idea is that it's normal right and so if you're not surprised by it then you can ask better questions if you're surprised when you find a gap or an error then you stop asking questions there so being able to ask questions that aren't looking for that specifically and more talking about what is normal work look like like describe to me how this goes normally tell me all of the you know when it goes well and when it doesn't go well help me understand the variability because that that thing that might have bought us together that that event or that one piece of information that I took is just a piece of a much much much larger puzzle and just having some open conversation you'd be surprised how much information you can get very very quickly much much faster than asking pointed questions designed to find a gap or find what should have happened you can ask hundreds of those questions and never even get close to what's actually happening and if you just ask a very simple question like hey can you describe to me you know how you're how do you work with this like is this glass how does this glass work for you like what do you do with that glass suddenly people can tell you the story of their normal work and that entire net of information that would be very helpful to have just comes out extremely naturally and without defense without people feeling like they're you know being interrogated and that's the information that we need in order to understand what's beyond that error what's beyond that not following procedure so that we can I think that comes back to the broader context of hot because hop isn't a program it is more of a paradigm shift and and as we said it embraces concepts and all manner of different disciplines from political science to the social sciences and to movements that's safety differently safety – it's embracing all these ideas and it doesn't necessarily come to a single conclusion of anything I'm it recognizes the pluralism of it all now when you talk about curiosity which is the thing we're talking about here is something you've touched upon entering in your work in your line of work in coaching as a core element of both leadership and coaching as it as a style what are your thoughts well I think it's funny I think this idea when you describe kind of fundamentally what coaching is about you can actually describe it in a way if you don't label at first that people will either say you're talking about leadership and nothing most most the time people do that first right and so one of the core requirements I feel like that's the way that I consider it when you talk about coaching of the process is the idea of saying I don't have the answers and I think it's important to actually go into that that with a neutral kind of approach and we're always seeking to do is to actually improve now improve might actually mean learning but importantly in that context I think that the first principle and that's where these five principles of pop I think I really helpful to just reflect on and soak because we have to kind of get the blame thing sorted out in our head first as in blame is not going to be helpful here and and once we've got that sorted out which often we have to go through in the context of any investigation and you know all that sort of stuff because often blame is a central but unspoken you know kind of subtext in an investigation then we can go okay what and then questions will really have that curiosity Calliope think about curiosity like in the context of due diligence so anything that we go out there to do that's important or matters that work or an organization we know that information is powerful and you know this in your personal life too if you're looking at taking on a mortgage or a neighborhood or buying a boat or somebody you do as much research as you possibly can to be well-informed and we have whole teams of people and every company that we work for we're doing the same thing your due diligence about acquisitions and you know legal implications with new regulations to like but it's only when we get to the places where we have humans in our system messing up that we seem satisfied sometimes it's just too often fold up the tents as soon as we've got that bad person staying in the middle you should have that same curiosity and due diligence process what we're looking at the emitter mm-hmm is doing much better please and that ties in with that final print fair principle that response response matters and the interesting thing when all these workshops we've done frontline people don't have any problems generally getting all this you know I take you take for example a safety to principle of equivalence success and failure they're very closely aligned you know all the same conditions in failures are all the same conditions are there and success therefore they can't be the report is that's impossible because they're all there all the time so they get that yeah yeah when we get that we understand how normal work and and what we call failures are very closely intertwined whereas often times managers middle managers spent a lifetime on on the black line so to speak and safety people so and it's very easy I should have should have done this shut of them that differently and that this context of the idea of that thirty year the blue line is like what's the blue line the blue line needs to be on the black line so being able to kind of take a chill pill and go okay tell me about the blue line well there's and I can learn about this and I can understand and that's something which is a challenge with some people to really take on board always tell people I said okay I can make your movie-going experience much more efficient you know yeah I can tell you to go in and buy the ticket at the cinema is that what we call it yes animal cinema and everything sounds much more sophisticated even bad dirty things yeah you can so you can go in and buy your ticket and then leave the theater and go out to your car get on Wi-Fi and do productive work and then come in for the last 15 minutes of the movie and you will definitely get the gist you will know who married to whom who would live happily ever after who was the bad person but that misses the point because the joy of learning and discovering is is seeing the whole process and you know I'm not a huge participant in social media but this whole LinkedIn thing you know and I don't have like 8,000 million friends that were in the health and safety and research or rescue business and I'm just so fascinated every single day I can find some video clip of something usually in a third world country doing something just absolutely by popping like crazy and then in chime all of these you know these Monday Morning Quarterback experts saying well clearly you can see this coming and this is ridiculous but I don't think that benefits is and I think a lot of people kind of skate by by going out there after something happens comparing that to our plan never really questioning is there a plan good or does it need modification we tend to think these things are carved in Granite and then come back and be able to tell management another stay close like here's how far they were off of our idea and here's the leaf doctor it's effectively like a drive-by isn't it on this Drive I take the photo then I'll just put it into the system and and then who rains on everyone in the process I think and I think there's a real danger that that the blackness is something Bob Edwards and their selves were talking about last week is that the black line is often presumed to be the correct way the way that nothing bad will happen but in actual fact that black line is based upon our best knowledge at the time the plan that we had and it may also trend towards failure and blue line is actually representing people adjusting to to correct for that failure so I think it's very important too because that black line you know back 70 years ago when you see steeple Jack's climbing's their chimneys without ropes and so forth it was probably acceptable but it was the planned line of work but there may well be inherent problems and a network tend not to get in trouble when given a good plan and to go out and implement that plan would we need to do it tend to do just perfectly yeah yeah and do it over and over again it's when we introduced the complexity of multiple plans that were now seemingly simple one-page guidance documents or rules or procedures that standing alone make perfect sense and those are the things that we can well how far were they off of this guideline but we tend not to realize is they were probably simultaneously running five or six of those things and there is no overarching plan that can account for that sort of complexity day to day but I think is it just on that point and the language is important I would kind of describe that as complicatedness like I would say complexity is something that exists in a system and everyone you talk to everyone in business now there are things getting even more in complex so why are we trying to simplify it you know the lack line approach to life mm-hmm and what we're trying to do optimally it becomes complicated the first time that the black line is a blue line do you guys from the black line right and that happens almost the second that you write something down yeah but we often focus on that blue line is you know variants as being a bad thing but actually it and I so I think hops so important is that it explores both the black and the blue line you know the assumptions that were there both within the plan itself and it's not necessarily putting the blue line up to the black line and making it flat and parallel it's understanding both sides of the story the gap digging deep into that gap and understanding and helping to bring that more into alignment not one to the other you

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