Mormon Missionaries – Interview and Q&A

Mormon Missionaries - Interview and Q&A

QB Mosiah chapter 27 and it's verses 25 and 26 I'm sorry Jeff whatever 1327 all right this verse 25 in choices okay cool and the Lord said unto me marvel not that all men can be men and women all nations Kindred's tongues and people must be burning in each burner God changed from their carnal fallen state to state of righteousness in redeemed of God becoming his sons and daughters and thus they become new creatures unless they do this I cannot in no wise and air the kingdom of God but I kind of get out of that is like first of all he he offers it to everyone he wants everybody to kind of like to be born again in a sense and then like in it you kind of you have a change and I like a change of heart no like I kind of look at it and then and then like through this like you're eating and you like strive to be like righteous and then like and then like you have to come I do this to heretic you don't like the verse where it says how to be perfect as Apollo's perfect someone yeah right exactly and so then this process we find kind of how it happens it's an ax it's kind of what we believe that allows this whole born-again process to occur and that we can truly become a new creature in the rice it's Acts chapter 2 verse 37 and 38 yeah and I can read those okay it says now when they heard this they were pricked in their heart and said unto Peter and to the rest of the Apostles men and brethren what shall we do then Peter said unto them repent and be baptized every one of you the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and he shall receive the gift of the holy and so what we call that Scripture we believe that outlines what we call the doctrine of Christ which consists of first faith in the Lord Jesus Christ second repentance third baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and fourth the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost okay so so that right there is kind of what we and along with that after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost continuing to endure to the end faithfully oh yeah I'm just kidding my phone yeah ah so I was I'm sipping the bag by the way yeah so with that idea in mind so first faith in the Lord Jesus Christ why do you believe that that would be essential for us truly becoming born of God well it couldn't be say right yeah like he's the author and finisher of our faith right and so we need to develop that faith in Jesus Christ and that faith that we develop it leads us to want to be better to do and be better and then that's what kind of leads into that idea right right in the Book of Mormon there's a phrase that it uses several times its faith unto repentance so naturally when we develop that faith in Jesus Christ we we come to know who he is and the power of his great atoning sacrifice like his his death and resurrection we want to then utilize that so that we can repent and become clean yeah does that make sense and so what what's the difference between repentance and just changing your behavior well repentance is the changing of mind in the sense of me like you change your mind from away from your sin changing it towards God versus changing your mind was just like Morgan said changing like just changing behavior tainted behavior you could just be I mean it doesn't necessarily change in your inner person like your poor self is just you know your kind of like a different new hobby kind of thing you know follow apprentices again is a poorly current way of 180 degrees pretty much privacy it yeah when I look at repentance is not so much about changing what you're doing by changing what you're becoming right repentance is a becoming thing yeah and there's a another scripture in the book more on this one's like my favorites it's also a Mosiah now let's read it real quick it's Mosiah chapter 3 verse 19 and it says are you trying to go there okay I'll slow down he said oh listen Hosea chapter 3 and it's verse 19 okay and it says for the natural man is an enemy to God and it has been from the fall of Adam and will be for ever and ever unless he yields to the enticings of the holy spirit and put it off the natural man and become a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord and become as a child submissive meek humble patient full of love willing to submit to all things which the Lord sees fit to inflict upon him even as a child does submit to his father and so in this verse it highlights not so much what we're changing but like what we're becoming we become as a child – missing me complication right and that's what we're really trying to do in preparation for that baptism right we're trying to repent and become as a child and truly give ourselves in our life to Jesus Christ because really when were baptized we're entering into what we call a covenant like a promise with God that makes ensign okay so can I come out for a question yeah so in regards to baptism what what was the first century context of baptism especially when John the Baptist baptized and then later on when Jesus was baptized on the John and then later on like in Acts chapter 2 where Peter says every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus so like whole ritual of baptism what did that symbolize in a medicine ball it's symbolic of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ meaning that it's like a death of your old life and burying yourself and rising anew with like a new resolve to to follow Jesus Christ so do you see it as the the whole immersion like they would they would go down like as I stood there being buried six feet under then when they come out of the water it's it's symbolic of them actually rising from the grave and so it's basically you're you're being put in the place of Jesus's death burial and resurrection is that what how you see baptism it in a sense yeah we're like fall we are following the example of Jesus Christ but when we're baptized as he was baptized by John B because when he was baptized by John he came straight way out of the water and so we believe that you would do so similarly I wouldn't we're baptized okay so then when Peter says about repent and be baptized wouldn't the repent involve faith like a salvific faith that precedes baptism and in baptism is a natural result of the person to want to be associated with the bed the death burial and resurrection of Jesus so now that I understand Jesus is my Savior through faith not of works like I can't do anything for salvation and now to I guess you could say is mark myself or seal myself with like I do identify myself with Jesus I want to identify in his death in his burial and in his resurrection and hence that's what baptism was all about like so earlier on you mentioned baptism has some form of spiritual quality and so how do you make that connection with the symbolic association that that baptism does have something spiritual about it I don't know if I completely understand the question so your your question essentially is like if I interpret and kind of understand what you're saying correctly your idea is that baptism is more something that you can just do to show rather than having any sort of significant value to toward like your salvation or anything like that is that you know okay and that's something that's very common within like Christian faith and everything and that is something that we read in John chapter three verse five where Jesus Christ speaking says barely barely except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God and so that's where we believe that that being born of water consists of that baptism and then being born of the Spirit is receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost thereafter okay so in John 3 when Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus Nicodemus is well aware of what's called second temple Jewish theology and and discussions on to be born through the water so to speak and is it's curious that in John 3 Nicodemus actually does speak to Jesus about the whole being born of water because Nicodemus took it literally like I mean we're talking the biological functions of a female you know Nicodemus is like what being born again and what happens when you when you're just about to be born well a woman breaks water and then a baby comes through after labor but Jesus is then associating the baptism of that you know John the Baptist and that type of practice to speak about the fact that that symbolically represents a I guess you could say like a washing of the old life and re emergence in in the resurrection in the new heavens new earth sort of thing and then hence the whole through the spirit which would encompass what Peter says in acts 2 which is repent be baptized in the name of Jesus and then you'll receive the gift of the Spirit so but but you see in both instances whether it's a John 3 or acts 2 I still don't see the the quality of water as having some form of spirit like an intrinsic spiritual sort of quality right God has to be working in that yeah for sure and I don't know I I would kind of agree with you in the fact that the water doesn't have necessarily any actual washing value yeah but we believe that what we are baptized we enter into a covenant or a promise with God and that's more what it's significant is the fact that we followed the example of Jesus Christ by being baptized as well because we're supposed to follow follow his example we follow his example and by so doing we are witnessing that we are entering into a covenant with with God we're at work so it's like and we call it an ordinance and in our church an ordinance is something that you can do it's like a pinky promise right like I'm promising that the pinky promise is the action behind the actual promise so me like me interlocking pinkies with other Jacobsen here really doesn't mean all that much but there's a covenant behind our interlocking of pinkies that makes it more real and that covenant consists of us taking upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ always remembering him and keeping his Commandments striving to do so and as we do so we qualify for the constant companionship of the gift of the Holy Ghost so is is baptism required for salvation in in salvation into the heavenly father's kingdom yes so then that's my question like how is that possible if water doesn't have like if h2o doesn't have any salvific sort of quality intrinsic to it then how does that relate how like why would then it be necessary for salvation when really it's all about I want to be associated with Jesus if possible like like remember the eunuch and acts a if it if possible what hinders me from being baptized then because now he understands the gospel when Philip explains it to him and and then obviously Philip that and then obviously then they come across you know a puddle and instead of being immersed he actually gets sprinkled in in acts 8 so there's a different type of baptism over there yeah I guess it boils down to the fact so there's the Bible that interprets and like teaches and if that idea of being born of water and of the Spirit isn't clear enough that's what the Book of Mormon is there to do is there to like support and add a second witness because there's so many different interpretations of what that actually means right being born of water everyone's like like that is the water breaking or that isn't the water breaking or you need to be sprinkled right like baptism is just kind of a lost idea among Christianity I feel like and what the Book of Mormon does is it gives us that second witness because the way I kind of look at it is like there's a dot in a board and not say that's one verse of scripture how many different lines will you draw through that one dot all right infinite right but if you take a second dot it makes it pretty hard there's only one line that can go between the two and so there's a scripture that's in the Book of Mormon it's in 2nd Nephi chapter 9 verse 23 it says any commandeth all men that they must work and be baptized in his name having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God so um this particular teaching is this consistent in the last say 1800s of early church history like would you say that the does the second witness of the Book of Mormon that that's been that's that's been produced – for Christians either in the Middle East or around the Mediterranean context Mormon yeah yeah like for the last eighteen nineteen hundred years after the first century in that mid Mediterranean context so like Paul Peter though the Apostles than the early church like the seven churches in Revelation were they and and after that were they were they provided this second witness as of as a calibration to have a proper interpretation because as far as I know and I've read a lot of the church father material none of the Church Fathers have been associated baptism in this sense and so we're talking this huge disconnect then for a vast period of time in what I would call Orthodox Christianity and then but as I understand that the the Mormon scriptures were already like in existence simultaneous but in a different sort of hemisphere and in a different country but then they were emerged somehow and yeah right yeah yeah so it's it's the gospel of Jesus Christ being revealed to different people in a different portion of the world right and so that that's really what the Book of Mormon is about and I believe it to be consistent with what what was taught within the Bible that it helps Sephora can clarify because we do believe that when the book learn more or when the Bible was initially written by the hands of the Apostles and everything that those things went forth impurity unto the Gentiles right absolute purity the doctrine of Jesus Christ was taught but we believed that after it went into the hands of the Gentiles right that they they began to interpret the Scriptures differently the council of nicaea like you were talking about they made different ideas based on majority vote as to the doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ they made well they took pieces out maybe Paul had other epistles that weren't actually put into the Canon scripture that is now known as the Bible right okay so the these different so the purity of the Bible when it was first written when it first was spoken by the mouth of Jesus Christ himself and his apostles it went forth and purity to those people but then after that it was kind of missed translated in different points but we believe the Bible to be true right as far as it's translated correctly the way that God intended it to to come out at Oaks did you believe that the whole Bible like I used the Eisley I don't know how to use the NIV or the ESV is is way as well I know some people use say the King James do you believe that like from Genesis to Revelation all of it is is infallible inspired has has a complete authority in a moment context yes we just might we about neck DJ we believe in the Bible as far like I said before as far as it's translated correctly like we believe that when those who first spoke those words that they were cured and that they contain the fullness of the gospel okay so that but but that's interesting because then you see because I've got my scientist hat on right now so I'm thinking I'm thinking more like like if you could do like as a critical scientific sort of investigation here so my question to you would be could you defend Mormon theology say say you and I have a loss on an island somewhere and you and I plainly had the King James like you you just said that you like the King James translation so let's go along with right so if we just had the King James together you in your life experience you've experienced the Mormon life and theology and all that I have not but you have you have a certain amount of information to share and then the King James is your tool in that context so therefore how would you then defend Mormon theology specifically versus say like an Orthodox Christian like hunter and myself who hold to things like the Trinity you know Orthodox cradles sort of beliefs like that and we would also use the King James so then you know and I'm Anna and I guess to give you to give you some form of like a brownie point here since Mormon Mormonism or the emergence of the theology of Mormonism is more recent that means I guess you could say you're more up-to-date if I if I take into account Joseph Smith's life and most probably his encounters with the with the divine and all that so then surely you would have like a like a head start on on properly interpreting what you know the Bible is saying so then where would we be going wrong purely from the biblical context if you didn't have the moment book a moment to help you or not okay yeah so more than anything The Book of Mormon certainly is there to help clarify teachings in the Bible but more than anything the Book of Mormon is a witness and evidence of the truthfulness of what we call the restored gospel of Jesus Christ okay and the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is essentially we believe I'm sure you understand like we believe Jesus Christ had his church and his gospel and that after his apostles were killed those people who held the priesthood authority that's spoken of that that authority was lost and that Joseph Smith he was seeking out truth and he prayed and he asked God which church he was supposed to join and the answer was none of the churches contain the fullness of the gospel and he was then called as a prophet of God to restore the church and so the Book of Mormon more than anything it is evidence to the reality of Joseph Smith's divine called to be a prophet seer and Revelator and in these last days and so that and either the Book of Mormon it was either written by Joseph Smith and thus an absolutely diabolical hoax or it was actually translated by the gift and power of God and and it is evidence of his reality his call as a prophet and so then how would than that so now now that being said how did then say use the Bible alone in light of that that defense so like take the Trinity for example why would you not believe in the Trinity as I understand it like I've spoken to Joel witnesses that definitely you know reject the Trinity but as I understand as you because you see I haven't looked into mobile ISM too much and the little the little that I know you hold Jesus to be Jehovah but you all the Father to be Elohim and that that is confusing to me because I'm quite familiar with the engineers I'm quite familiar with the Old Testament theology and scholarship and so yeah I mean if you want maybe you can go in that direction and hunter or what's what's your you're Mormon brother's name I don't want you guys to be to feel left out oh okay yeah yes so like how do you so for example you don't believe in the Trinity then right we don't believe in the Trinity in the way that most Christianity believes in the Trinity however we do believe in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost we believe that there are three separate entities but they're they're unified and literally everything except for the fact that they're all one individual that makes sense that's kind of marble I said so why do you called Jesus Jehovah and the father Ella came way to get that from it okay it also goes back to the fact that like Joseph Smith right he is a prophet and part of his revelation as a prophet was the fact that God the Father is called Elohim the the Son Jesus Christ is Jehovah so we believe that Jesus Christ was the god of the Old Testament Jehovah so when in the Old Testament when you look back sorry you know can I do that sure go for it um when I actually read the Old Testament so I just actually just took a course in Hebrew and Greek and one of the messages that we came across was first heaven 15 and it was first 10 or 15 Jesus and the new test was called the Word of God you know in John Rocker and first timer 15 the Prophet that is speaking to the word account about salt in when you know it's going after david turning away forgot everything and I think was I think was Nathan I found out mistaken he goes back to Seoul and tell us what the Word of God says and closed him saying Yahweh said these things as the Word of God so do you claim Jesus to be Yahweh as well since he's pretend to be Yahweh in the Old Testament is the Word of God I I guess I'm not super informed on the on the subject I can study it more and they're kind of I honestly don't know much about Yahweh I guess okay I was just wondering if there was like a difference between Yahweh healer Jehovah I just wonder if there was a difference yeah since they're all great lords yeah to proclaim God does Yahweh is that the one that like interprets to like Joshua really is that it no no I used to take from the top than yhw H that the ancient Hebrews tell to and like the highest form of God Oh like it's more valuable than Jehovah re looking like Elohim can also mean like gods like plural as well as singular right but Yahweh you know is held to a much higher esteem in the Word of God was held to that so I just wonder if there was like a difference okay man gentlemen Elohim since the Word of God was called Yahweh yeah Tom oh that's interesting I honestly don't really know well isn't for a second 15 I couldn't Oh mark yes you see basically an analogy deism you have actually what's called the mm heaven which believe it or not encompasses to Yahweh's in one God so it's all to it you know to be most to use your language of Jehovah to Jehovah's in one entity so you have Jehovah number one who's invisible and Jehovah number two who is visible and joven number two manifests himself in various forms like the Word of God the Malacca Yahweh the ain't the angel of the Lord sometimes you know the hope burning bush incident in Exodus 3 you know pick pick any instance where you have tangible experiences with God in the Old Testament and then that's associated with the second Jehovah and the mayor on in the New Testament you have then the application of Jesus being that second Jehovah but in the first Jehovah is what Jesus calls the Father and then the spirit in the New Testament is associated with Jesus again so you have like a what's called a by NAT Aryan view that leads into trinitarianism now so that's so Mike so then my confusion and hunter's confusion is that if you say the father is Elohim but to any native Hebrew speaker they would have able to be thinking hang on a second el the word Elohim itself is not like a name it's just a it's just a word to describe the ontological nature of of an entity so to use a 20-pound yeah like if I was to if I was to say like right now I saw a ghost I'm implying to you that I'm seeing something as so slow because that word has a certain meaning so I'm communicating to you I've seen something that's supernatural or something that's other otherworldly like a like a spirit or a ghost now I'll never give or use the word ghost and name something with the word goes like I it's not I wouldn't tell you oh I just spoke to I just spoke to ghost today or I had a conversation with with ghost today like like with language like that it doesn't really make sense so Elohim is never really used as a name and that's where I'm getting confused like why why is Jesus called Jehovah which is literally the name and yet the father is not even called Jehovah so yeah that that would be my question to you in that sense yeah yeah I don't know yeah that's I don't know I haven't really looked into the name Elohim much or the Jehovah or anything like that I just the the thing that I know and I can testify of is that Joseph Smith when he knelt down on his knees he saw two personages one who identified himself as God and this is my beloved son hear him and so that's really what it boils down to like we can have conversation and everything but what we need to decide is whether Joseph Smith really was a prophet if he really did see two personages or if he did it right because we can stay here and discuss and everything no that's awesome and I'm happy to try and answer questions the best I can but that's the biggest question that we need to answer right is because he either he saw what he said he saw or he just completely made it up and the whole Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and everything is kinda well actually it's funny because of with the elder Richard metal pole uh I asked them you know why why did they want what you know brother mom to LDS like me first though I mean I think es who became a Christian yeah I wasn't raised in a Christian home by studying it through and everything is how I got to where I am today good I mean wrong sure that's why I'm searching out and everything looking at uh like going into a religion to everything it's really studying more clearly to grasp a bit more instead of just assume it or anything like that or just fall for my father's faith further I need to go on my own right and so whenever the one of the question asked them they brought that up is was Joseph Smith a possible God prophet God did he see two figures and so I asked him I was like well Mohammad saw Gabriel and came up Mecca right does that mean that Islam is true and what else had to be that if Muhammad SAW Gabriel came from Mecca does that mean his shirt is 70 sir when in talks about false prophets coming in sheep's clothing and by their fruits please don't know and so Joseph Smith the Book of Mormon that's the freeze all right and so you can test that you can read that and then you can pray and ask God if the book is true right and if the book is true then Joseph Smith is a prophet and the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints sure I was just wondering because did you talk about the two entities so I brought it to another religion that's what the enemies so just by personal experience with that doesn't necessarily make you should write solo makes a tree and you guys here with it's the Book of Mormon is true because look I'm talking Muslims all the time they say the Quran they gave us their product challenge right and things like that you know if you can produce any other book like this in the world that you just grew Islam which of course that's based on subjective opinion but you know violence is curious so okay so nine sister question um he also talked about um well you what the answer you said you talked about going oh if the busy things happen is that what he said or what was the other answer you said to it – concerning went down to the fruits of the person oh it's the Book of Mormon like really did is that we're not seem like if the Book of Mormon like the events that happen and transpired there if those yes that may happen is that what you were saying like to show that it's the religious tree right okay yeah no no that that's what the Book of Mormon is about is it's there as that proof of the reality of Joseph Smith's calling topography alright that's always warning doesn't Margaret is in question oh yeah sure that's great question yeah cheers yeah yep you must be familiar with the divine counsel then like the counsel of the gods and all that I I don't know much about it okay okay this is one in Sweden oh yes a lot yeah and he actually was there and then it lives up perfectly with Mormonism and he got it from I think it was it wasn't it wasn't that guys need to get it from Michael Heizer yeah in fact Michael Heizer he's an evangelical that was able to write a paper in a moment journal like a like an actual scholarly paper in the in a scholarly moment journal because the moment as far as I understand based on the paper moments used Michael Heiser's research to defend a divine council sort of scenario that it you know there's like a pantheon of gods in your theology and but Michael Heiser's point is if you take the two powers theology you'll you'll soon realize that it's Jesus and the father that are the uncreated gods of the council that they are the eternal uncreated gods they're the ones that create everything else so yeah I mean when again when you mentioned Joseph Smith having that experience with the two figures that to me is like that's great because if that's if that's the case my next question would be does he see one of the figures as eternal and the other one is not eternal or does he see both as eternal or does he see both as not eternal like which one of those three categories does he see those two figures under when he had that experience I think if he saying when we saw them like when he saw them that they you'd like to tell the difference or just kind of the belief system yeah what like his conclusions theological conclusions so you have Esau elohim and jehovah so father and Jesus is Jesus uncreated eternal as is he an omni god does he have Omni attributes like omniscience omnipotence omnipresence basically is Jesus the creator of all reality like literally everything and he's the uncreated being or is he yeah subset to creation yes we we believe that Jesus Christ he created all things that both which are in heaven and in earth we believe that he created it all it's under the direction of the Father did anything exist pre Jesus as far as we are concerned now then you are a nice scene you're a nice scene Christian you're uh you're an Orthodox Christian so I don't understand how you would fit the moment label it I guess the difference would be that I believe in like latter-day revelation that God does still speak to prophets like now right like Joseph Smith and that's something that okay like nice seeing Christians absolutely do not believe that is a clothes can write that like I don't know the very end of the Bible was it right all right well it's because when we look at it like that big part for instance product right happened in 1548 it just way after a council of nicaea fit in 1548 they actually were having the other I think this place was 66 ft with ebooks the other a book that was actually written around the time of Jesus or actually a lot of some other than a little bit before Jesus but the reason why I was not canonical because it actually majorly contradicted the other scriptures that were already and the descriptions like the Old Testament was accepted by the Hebrews as to is blank it's like verses in the Sanhedrin or the olders insecticides which they of course go through a threshold of what like to me would seem to be almost seventeen thousand books like what I'm not to get you know yes and so whenever we look at like the canonical things everything talk about the Canon is shut yeah this was why the early Christian school of the same supposedly traditional traditional holding Christians are adding books so and whenever whenever I looked into the council it was actually over the divinity of Christ whether he was the same as the father or whether him and the father had or who should not be confused but also in the same being should not be separated from my from actually reading the Nicene Creed and the Church Fathers surrounding who all of a minute um I think a thing was done Arianism was one of them did you know about did you know the areas with I don't know well Arianism is own he was the main guy who was in and I think I think of learning that was against the practically the church even though he lost it he actually got a foot into the Roman Catholic or the Roman Empire and he was actually able to spread around rather than people who actually won majority vote and it wasn't over in the Creed doesn't say anything about cannon the same thing about how the books formed or anything like that I'm what understand about the divinity of Christ as we was and so when you said like you know not letting him example the Turkish land that happened centuries after okay and I'm just wondering I didn't know if you knew that or not I was just curious yeah I have no idea yeah it's just like I said like I'm setting world religions and I've studied like and said it's really interesting and I'm always trying to figure out what is what's the truth you know what is that straight line up the two dots and this is the things I'm seeing or things that I'm finding out which is why I'm trying to focus on like you know where does this live you know and that's why should why I can't be a Christian so far oh and I guess one body other people religions like Muslims or even I'll talk to Hindu something I'm just like a pig farm seats so like that and then how do I like the Enlightenment and everything so I just are just curious would yourself that's what I didn't play you know do do I just I again I don't feel don't feel like you're you're being you know questioned without any form of purpose we we genuinely enjoying the discussion so yeah I hope I hope you do like yeah so my so then I think I mean let's just get down to like I guess you could say what the gospel means so what is your opinion on why Jesus became incarnated and why the resurrection was even a necessary thing in in God's plan like what what was the rationale for the Incarnation the death the burial and the resurrection in in Mormon theology like Jesus he had to I go through it like kind of feel like the lows of lows and like the like that so on both sides of the scale that I wouldn't like when you're judged that he he knew how you were feeling and he like understood and I kind of knew how to best judge and like best understand that here's some circumstances at that time okay is it okay eat some first is a little more than that don't forget it says it better like it so it says and now behold I will tell I will testify to myself that these things are true so this is a man named mu like he's teaching the people of the of this city it's and it's these people called the zoramites they've gone apostate right they apostatized from the church and everything and so he they're going to teach and he teaches about Jesus Christ and his importance and why he needed to perform the sacrifice okay and it says and now behold I testify if you want to turn there Alma 34 okay and I'll start in verse 8 and probably read till maybe 16 or something it's kind of long but um it says behold I say unto you that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men to take upon him the transgressions of his people and that he shall atone for the sins of the world but the Lord God hath spoken it for it is expedient that an atonement should be made for according to the great plan of the eternal God there must be an atonement made or else all mankind must unavoidably perish yay all are hardened yay all are fallen and are lost and must perish except the be through the atonement which is which it is expedient should be made where it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice yay not a sacrifice of man either of beasts neither of any manner of fowl for it shall not be a human sacrifice but it must must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another now if a man murder earth behold will our law which is just take the life of his brother I say unto you name but the law required the life of him who hath murderd therefore there can be nothing which is sort of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world therefore it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice and then shall there be or it is expedient there should be a stock to the shedding of blood then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled yes daaaaamn shall be all fulfilled every jot and tittle and none shall have passed away and behold this is the whole meaning of the law every whit pointing to the great and last sacrifice and that great and last sacrifice will be the son of God yay infinite and eternal and thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name this being the intent of this laquer this last sacrifice to bring about the bowels of Mercy which overpowers justice and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance and thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice and encircles them in the arms of mercy while kena exercises no faith hunter repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption therefore may God grant unto you my brethren that you may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance they begin to call upon his holy name that he would have mercy upon you so that so from what I heard there's a lot of like sacrifice that would result in atonement it's going to be an it's a once and for all eternal sacrifice and it's to satisfy the law of Moses right satisfy both the the law so not to satisfy the law of Moses but to fulfill right that whole law directed towards Jesus Christ and it was to satisfy the demands of justice really keep him to extend mercy because he he can do so because he took that punishment upon himself okay so the curious thing about all of that is that there is there is actually a lot of olap or overlap with say poor line theology in Romans like earlier on in Romans he does we communicate the necessity for Jesus and his sacrifice that only he can be that perfect sucker in fact the whole book of Hebrews is about that all right but then at the same time does there's a book of moment of this moment theology ever discuss the ramifications okay so let me kind of let me just backtrack a little bit the the atonement and the sacrifice is it's ironically a secondary issue or a secondary ramification not the primary reason why Jesus came the way he did so in other words when I read say Romans or book of Hebrews or Ephesians and and take any of the letters of Paul you know for example Philippians 3 there's this notion of what's called theosis or deification can you say that one more time see what wait can he like for a second okay so one second it's all frozen here can you hear me now yeah we can hear you great okay so in the New Testament you have what's called theosis or deification so what that means is whenever the New Testament talks about glorification like you've become glorified in the in the new in the new heavens new earth in the resurrection you become glorified right that is the reason why Jesus became incarnate and then the atoning sacrifice like the atoning affects is like secondary to that it that it said that incarnation and the sacrifice on the cross also deals with you know the sins that we've committed and it pays our debt in you know in a once-and-for-all fashion so but then this leads back into I think I guess the question on Jesus being God because for the sacrifice to be eternal requires that the logos which is the word that becomes flesh that that logos is Yahweh or Jehovah or you know and and therefore has an intrinsic like ontological relationship with the father you know that that they're not completely that they're not separate and that Jesus is less than the father sort of thing that they're both equal in that in that plan so how much of that do so I does it there's a lot of agreement I actually have is what you just read but then there's also curious sort of I guess you could say nuances I'd like to introduce like the things like theosis and so on and then how much of that well how much of what I just said would you agree with because because then again it leads into a Trinitarian sort of theology in in an Orthodox sense and I don't think we disagree much on that which is quite interesting right so so is your question more like do we like we believe do we believe that that we like Jesus Christ has to some have some sort of deity like God and be equal in sense to God the Father right in order that he there basically there's a lot of theological parameters like you know in systematic theology we have different sort of topics that all seem to funnel in that one passage we just read and and then here's another theological facet where it's by faith alone through Christ alone by so by grace through faith are you saved not of works sort of things so when I when I read what you just when you when I heard what he just read the anything associated with an eternal sacrifice by default means our repentance does not involve any form of work to be saved including baptism so that's again this goes back to that at the side of the discussion it's all by Jesus and what he's done for us and all we do is respond and face not so so we never like perform something to vout2 to either add or aid or or vindicate this the salvation that we have and I maybe that's maybe that's the crux of the issue maybe that's where our disagreement lies because up to this point I think we agree and then maybe it comes literally comes down to I believe we're saved by grace alone through faith alone not of works whereas you might be saying yeah I believe I'm saved through faith and grace but then there's you need the validation of the works in order to justify your salvation or something like that like maybe maybe that could be the the key difference yeah yeah I that may be what it is it's so we don't believe in any sense that we could earn our way to heaven like that's frankly impossible like that's not something that we can do and this is something that kind of goes into like our whole it's like kind of a whole different conversation but the idea of the celestial terrestrial and celestial kingdom like the three kingdoms of glory within heaven we believe that in a sense we all will be safe safe in that in that idea and when we talk about saved there's different ideas so there's like saved from death right physical death save from spiritual death right say from like what are we being saved from his salvation can take a dim lighting different integration so that's that's what I'm getting at the theosis so that so you've I think you're on the right track so so now okay now that's interesting I don't know about this three-tiered heaven thing you're talking about in in Christian theology it's just heaven and then the universe which involves the earth so when I speak about theosis or deification that then automatically suggests which you see this in Ephesians you are currently present in the heavenly realm of seated with Jesus on the throne and in Revelation you see the 24 elders around God's throne and and all that stuff basically we become the new divine council Christians become that so so then why would there be three tiers of heaven I use are you saying that said that because that's confusing you see so if I'm not a Mormon where would I be positioned in Mormon heaven okay so there's so I'll explain this briefly so the celestial kingdom the terrestrial Kingdom in the t-west looking and we read that about it in first Corinthians chapter 15 it talks about like there's their start there's a celestial body like bodies celestial and terrestrial and how long one star differs from glory from another and that there is one glory of the Sun start moon and the stars right that whole deal and so we believe that the celestial kingdom the terrestrial Kingdom in the t-west looking them and then those who go to the celestial kingdom are those who fully accept the gospel of Jesus Christ including faith repentance baptism the reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints the Thresh stroking of are for those that pick up not I'll just explain everything that you can do script yeah and so the terrestrial Kingdom are for those who believe in Jesus Christ right with good honorable lives but maybe didn't apply all of the principles of the gospel principles and ordinances and covenants of the gospel and so they they're in the terrestrial Kingdom and then the t-west show kingdom is for those who did not live any sort of honourable life right then like bad things throughout life never repented of their sins died in their sins in a sense and so those are the three kingdoms but these are all the kingdoms of glory right like in a sense we are all saved because we continue to live we're all immortal right well because the resurrection we believe bought that resurrection for everyone right all will rise and it's just a matter of whether we're in the celestial terrestrial or t-west leukemia so the New Testament only speaks about the celestial if I'm going to use that phraseology and the only way you can get into the celestial is if you believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus and then you're identified in the theosis of in of the glorification stuff which 1 Corinthians 15 talks about and when Paul talks about how there's different stars that differ from each other in a passage he's talk don't forget he's talking to a Corinthian context because Corinth was known to have celestial entities in there in their respective religion and Paul's us utilizing the language of that culture to say just as you understand that there are different qualities of existence in your own religion like right now I'm a human being then for example there's a fish that experiences fish like life and there's a dog then there's like an elephant then it's a bird then there could be angelic entities and then Paul later on in the passage then says but when you're you're sown a physical body you be raised a spiritual body and the argument is making is is that you you literally become lot like literally like Jesus in the glorified form and whatever wherever Jesus is located so I'm presuming you would say Jesus would be located in the celestial realm with the fried yes yes so then pretty much every Christian and associated with Jesus in the resurrection will only be in that form and there is no like I guess you could say a watered-down level of that form it's it's either just that form or you're not in that and you're cast into the outer darkness which would be hell as Revelation talks about am I talking over Oh Megan knew he Russell know I can hear you yeah okay yeah and that's that's great and I like I mean okay I hate to do it but it really just boils back to the fact that Joseph Smith was a prophet the way that Chuck liked the way that God God gives Joseph Smith like this whole revelation on these kingdoms right of glory and explains like who goes to which Kingdom and all of that stuff and you'd be interested in reading that you certainly can it's called the Doctrine and Covenants section 76 I believe it's 76 I'll double-check that real quick but he receives like this entire revelation on these three kingdoms right and so that it just kind of ties back to that right why is it there's like but why wasn't this information included in the biblical context as well as the engineer East and Second Temple context to early Jews and early Christians Wyatt why was this only unique to say Joseph Smith or in the moment literature yeah there's a scripture it's in in the Book of Mormon and it's talking about like the Bible right and like the plain and precious truths that that are caught in it okay and in this meant this guy his name's Nephi he's having is this vision basically it's is similar to like John the beloved's vision right with anything like the revelation that he had on Isla Pappas it's very similar in that sense that he sees a lot of the history of the world and at one point he actually sees like the Bible and everything and how it comes forth and so he says in here it says then it came to pass that I be fine beheld that they did prosper in the land he's talking about the Gentiles that were delivered right and in here on the American continent it says and the English said oh and it says that not beheld a book and it was carried forth among them and the angel said unto me knowest out the meeting of the book and I said unto him I know not and he said behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a tube and I knew if I be held in and he said unto me the book that thou behold us is a record of the Jews which contains their covenants of the Lord which he hath made into the house of Israel not the God that get kind of to the point I guess and it says the angel of the Lord said him to me thou has to be held that the book graffitied proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew and when I proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fullness of the gospel of the Lord of whom the 12 apostles bear record and they bear record according to the truth which is the Lamb of God wherefore these things go forth from the Jews and purity unto the Gentiles according to the truth which is thank God and after they go forth by the hand of the 12 apostles of the Lamb they it says of the lamb from the Jews unto the Gentiles they have taken away from the gospel of the land many parts which are clean and most precious and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away and so that that's kind of what we would believe is that that that truth there's like so many different truths that could have been lost over time right Ryan right we believe that was one of the truths when we talk about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ that was one of those truths that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith if that makes sense right that our belief and yeah so this this ancient like Jewish scripture that Nephi talks about which what scripture would that be in the Old Testament it would just be the Bible as a whole but then how you see what about canonization like that would be the next question out ha because you wouldn't have any like canonized biblia or a Bible or a book the Hebrew Scriptures would be in its own like unique codices like Isaiah would be just Isaiah you know Zechariah would just be Zechariah there would never be one book like what what what BC period are you talking about in that context this is about 600 BC that is I think it's like 584 you see that he has this his vision and he sees this is like after it actually is kind of cool it talks about how the Gentiles actually end up leaving Great Britain and moved to the American continent and how they're given like the power of God and everything to help them sustain themselves and to give them self enough like a free country where we can worship freely and everything is cool and it said that it's at that point that he be holds this book that comes forth so he sees the book come forth as it was in the Bible when that was what like I guess like 1776 ish right he's in the book the Bible whereas he talks about how when those things first went forth out of the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb that's the way that they were supposed to be if that makes sense okay now how do you know that that is true though like that he actually has a vision of a canonized Hebrew Scripture which is quite I mean if you think about it that's quite fantastic but you know I'm by the way I'm up I don't want to press you too much on that because that in itself is you know we're both in the in the blind in that so yeah I guess it's just prayer like like that there's only one source of truth right God like he's the only one that can speak 100% and reveal 100% truth all the time and so it boils down to reading The Book of Mormon and praying and asking God if it's true because I do believe that God reveals truth to us as we seek it out well I questioned I have for that though concerning truth kind of like the same example example I use with Joseph with the divine experience yet right how did how you differentiate what is between what is actually from God and what is not from God but sort of thought of this youthful now saying that everything but right like with Muslims because many times I do it like somebody can pray to God and they say that yes this is your meat but it totally in contradiction to somebody else's revelation that they say they got from God which you hear about false prophets all the time fighting each other because they say no got some of this no God told me this and turns out most of it all right you know how do we actually differentiate that when we prayed to God he is actually the one who taught us is this true rather than it being another entity like the same entity that convinced Mohammed that he was the last prophet of God as revealed through Scripture as well with the Muslims also go to scripture to show that he was the Promised One um and so that's just I always try to compare contrast and how do we answer these questions together in order to not come to not be not come to a different conclusion but also it says not fall for the same things than they fell for and it said so that's what so how do you differentiate between those that's a great question there's a scripture in the Book of Mormon it says but behold I which is of God invited and entice it to do good continually or for everything which invited and entice it to do good and to love God and to serve him as inspired of God but behold the Spirit of Christ is given to every man that he may know good from evil wherefore I shown to you the way to judge for everything which invite it to do good and to persuade to believe in Christ is sent forth by the power after Christ wherefore you may know with the perfect knowledge is of God in a version that you said this every spirit or read to read again is it for behold the Spirit of Christ is given to every man yes does that also and also mean it's given a false prophets – I yeah it could be so how does that work if there's still false prophets I don't know I see a question so that's what I wondered because if it was given that means the same she was give it to the comment yet be starting Islam and of course we know that century so how did so how does that work also with Joseph Smith how was he not falling how how can we for sure know but pray to God that he is not somehow fallen you same category not just asking oh yeah I'm saying this sort of thing I'm not I just honestly this was just questioning public in my head so forgive me if I'm coming off strong yeah but I just wondered how so how can we do the same exact thing if the Spirit is given to every man yeah there are still men who are false prophets no I think it stems from root of like motivation like some people may become like not so much just interested in revealing like the gospel and everything I don't know like that I guess the difference in specifically the Muslim like an aspect of it it says is sent forth by the like to persuade you to believe in Christ right is something that is like good yeah he's of God because they also believe that they are bringing back the true gospel right on so they believe they're falling the true Jesus who's Muslim who is one who gave himself to God who submitted himself to get the world God so how exactly was it now but so easy I'm saying I'm comparing contrasting also to honestly to the Impostors themselves you know just honestly do that no I'm just you know I think I think that's a good point hunters raising is that because I've enjoyed I actually more I know more about Islam than Mormonism and I've interacted with Muslims a lot longer than Mormons so the one thing that Muslims love to constantly point out is that the injeel and injeel and in arabic miss gospel the injeel was corrupted so you know the New Testament gospel was corrupted and so therefore Muhammad and the Quran is to correct what was corrupted and therefore the true injeel is what's preserved and not only the quran barrels and the hadith switches think-think the Quran is the Gospels of the hadith as they Paul's letters and sir and on top of that obviously then later Islamic writings and traditions it's sounding very similar to that that you have now like a second witness which in this case is the moment scriptures that is giving a much more coherent calibrated like fuller expression of the gospel something that is somehow lacking only from the Bible alone because you yourself just said you know that the whole Canon being closed and that's that sort of thing and and it basically we're getting the same arguments from an Arabian prophet around the 600's ad whereas Joseph Smith is around the 1800s yeah I think hunters raised a good point on that like how like and I know you said you know we we judge them by their fruits and that's all well and good but why are the claims sort of like repeated over history so when Jesus said many will come in my name you know people will teach pretty much what I taught habla and write throughout church history your having many people making the same claim leading up to Mohammed and then now it it it's it appears that you know Joseph Smith is doing the same thing yeah so how do we know that Muslim like Islam is not true right so I how I know is is I actually don't even look at the work side I mean that'sthat's given anyway but what I do is I look at just the text alone so the Quran in itself you know the theology of Islam and then I noticed that there's a lot of plagiarizing going on it's it's nothing but like a pastiche of Gnostic literature Orthodox Christian literature pre-islamic Arabia paganism you know it's just this huge confused jumbled up mess like someone's taking scissors cut up through all the religious texts of the past six hundred years before Mohammed and just just mashed it together and then you get the Quran now I'm not saying that's the same at the moment scriptures because obviously I haven't really studied it in depth but I'm wondering if if there is a hint of a similar thing going on for example when you read that atonement passage about what it means what like why did Jesus come and die and so on that's that's like so much of an overlap with what I'm reading in the New Testament and then suddenly there's a sudden shift in Gears where on by the way works is included in that and then there's a convenient sort of ignoring of I don't know if ignoring the right word but but there's no existence of theosis language like why we experience glorification and and then when you introduce that the three levels of heaven like suddenly that just comes out of nowhere you know it's like it's like it's like it's added on top of what the Bible already has so all gone well counting on all the way you said yes the question hurt no Islam through so actually kind of being like a like I love history kind of a thing looking at being the reliability of the life of Jesus Christ if you were to deny that Christ was not crucified under Pontius Pilate around the you know third decade eighty you might as well dismiss all of Garda roaming live history around that time right so when i when i read that and i and i see the amount of evidence concluding that jesus definitely lived a life of you know of miracle or kings was even like the jews evil record and being that he was crucified for our sense of full sense of trees than blasphemy which ever sake looking for more than a creek or whatever do but they miss crucified and then you come to a text six hundred years later and say this did not happen well i'm I have I didn't have to go with where the evidence shows and actually my precious Bruce part where the ground whole mostly contradiction to that which is where it's completely in contrast or in hittin bugs with the kind of with what is true what is where the possibility is absolutely like 99.99% Tom right because that's how Pacific Standard Time on possibility they don't ever just put a hundred on it you know but and then we have the sexing and you know later on without any noticing without any verification from eyewitnesses or anything then it didn't happen and so when I see kings of Bab and then along with a Jerusalem things like that and then the misuse of or actually when you actually see its own scripture contradict itself saying that's been preserved over time perfectly but yeah when you look at ministers everything it's a little very top middle he changed the complete and total different meanings I've learned and show them that it's not be preserved showing that the very the scripture itself can't even hold to its own standard it's it's look it's great at a Center for herself it itself cannot even hold to and so those are like the three things you know that I see the contradictions with the be huge evidence and the standard it's falling through and then we're good to don't switch from like the Gnostic Gospels and subsides which we know were forgeries yeah that's where we can trace the sources from the short the source fun it's reported in books or in her quarter than the Quran as if it's true but yet we know it's not because we molarity which means well though those are that's how I know that's how I would say oh no that is on this wall by the book itself by wearing sources come from and by the history in the facts that it contradicts okay cool that's awesome yeah yeah and I guess the way that I kind of look at the Book of Mormon right it's really like I kind of mentioned this before it's either god-given or man-made that's that's kind of I'm not and I'm not coming apart to anything yeah exactly and so we have to decide if it's really like God actually revealed like if this angel Moroni I really like appeared to Joseph Smith and he saw the plates and everything and like my testimony is that he did translate it by the gift and power of God right and there's a lot of elements to that testimony there's the the spirit that is borne witness to me also the fact sorry what because it doesn't spend the translating over tomorrow night there was Joseph Smith that translated okay yeah okay Murrow and I led him to the record and it Joseph Smith because I never on time who's come before right that the elements before you know told me one that hot that look something yeah sure so I'm sorry you're good and so really when we look at the Book of Mormon right it's 531 per eight pages adhere to for unknown literature Bryant that no one had ever heard about shows a Smith from the time that he found this these golden plates right it was fifty five working days that he spent working on translating this record there's different ideas as to how he was able to do that some people say oh he just took different characters from these different books or anything like that in order to do that he had no notes of any kind as he wrote the entire Book of Mormon his wife Emma was right there by his side the whole time never saw and he sort of know so by implication of that he would have to have a photographic memory to be able to take that other things you're saying this in the context like sorry you're saying this in the context that if it's purely a naturalistic explanation there's no supernatural scenario going on then then obviously he would need a photographic memory too right exactly yeah and so it like this is more of like I guess the temporal side of things if he were to make it up himself he would have known photograph have a photographic memory he'd have to be literally like a creative genius he had a second grade education with like that that's how far he went in school his wife told it told the people that he could hardly write a legible letter all by himself let alone a 531 page book by himself right there's there's just all of these different things and the other like it's teeming with literary and somatic complexity well no you know what you know what's really remarkable with these claims yeah I'm not kidding when I say this this is exactly word for word just say everything you just said and replace Joseph Smith's name with Mohammed oh I was literally just thinking the same exact thing because that's literally what though it's okay so the difference being the Book of Mormons powerful witness of the Savior that it's literally brought millions including myself closer to Jesus Christ yeah because Mohammed he was also delivering to where even San Gabriel himself he said because Gabriel repeated him recite recite recite and Muhammad over and over again says I can't I can't read I can't read and yet you have to crime today that's from Muhammad's very the strong Muhammad themselves mostly that came from people they came from so when you're seeing those things like this I think it's really funny how both of our minds kind of clicked at the same time everybody at the same time Muhammad is also saying that he's bringing billions and millions uh closer to Christ the true nature of who he is so again canary which obviously in that case II like obviously a billions of Muslims who believe in a particular I guess you could say Islamic Jesus like like ISA and who is that yeah these are the name for Jesus that's who they call Jesus well well then that's just sorry hon I just want to say technically the Arabic word for for Yeshua or Jesus is ei su but so ISA in itself is actually a a Tara so either way ISA is just the they're wrong it's a it's it's it's at etymologically wrong but it's still associated with Jesus let's just put it that way yeah so does the Quran persuade people to believe in Jesus of Nazareth who died on the cross at Calvary and rose again the third day they don't believe that he did die on cross but that it appeared that he did in order to perform a miracle to save the disabled as been like in the Salah process that the Messiah will not see an decay well how do you do that if he was crucified dead later to which even the New Testament uses but again that's a missed rendering the usage of cdk sources because he didn't see the cables why he was resurrected so see how they were saying misuse of the prophecies of English use they kind of changed it a little bit to make it fit their ideology say they keep getting crucified wants to in paint but that's why we have the resurrection to show that the psalm to issue because he didn't see the cave because of the fact he was resurrected so so you see like little things like that but again that's why you know we just just comparing the two and everything they hold to that it is the Messiah of the New Testament Jesus of the New Testament with all of the same things lined up but it was again something that was not revealed so Muhammad came along because lost over time and so that's you know just comparing to traffic that's that that's why we come like a lipo more like oh wait this is exactly what my hardest thing right okay and just just to emphasize Islam ultimately its its its ultimate focus I think is you know if you want to really get down to what is Islam ultimately wanting you to believe if you if you do become a Muslim very strict monotheism so no such thing as a divine council Paula is the only God no no other God exists apart from Allah and and basically ISA or Jesus his his acts supposedly his life his teachings was to point to purely Allah worship whereas so that's that's one extreme the other extreme would be in this case Mormonism would be more polytheistic and in this case two particular figures approach Joseph Smith's which is a Elohim and Jehovah or the Father and Jesus and then they teach a particular message that has a more of a New Testament flavor to it and then in between the two you have both of Doc's Christianity which goes back to the first century that seems to like both like basically both groups so Muslims and and Mormons have taken pieces from from them in this case the Bible and then applied it in their own way and that's what we are saying as first century Christians or people who like myself and Hana who looked to first century Christianity and and only practice what what's showed over there yeah but you see I I know what I find intriguing and I think this is what's going through your mind maybe as a question is but then what about that moment context that the moment scriptures that sort of like maybe in a contemporary way like simultaneously exist with old tech like you mentioned it was in the 600's BC that the that the text was existing it goes from 600 BC to 480 okay okay that the text was developed in that period the moment descriptions well right right right so that would be then contemporaneous with in this case the latter end of the Old Testament and then pretty much most of the New Testament in fact all of the New Testament really but you see then that would be set apart in a totally different continent I'm presuming compared to the Mediterranean happenings of pretty much all of the Old Testament and all of the New Testament in but in a simultaneous manner and and then that overlap how that overlap happens is the key question so if there is a genuine non-usage of say the Old Testament New Testament and I pretend the people in between 600 BC and 400 AD that they had no idea except for that particular vision you pointed out that you know it because it mentions the Jew and the Jewish Scriptures but let's just say they they have a completely like ignorant of anything to do with the Bible then that would be quite fascinating but they were that they had this knowledge that's that's quite similar to say biblical theology so is that the case or did they actually do have a somehow like a connection to the biblical context and then there's like a like a borrowing taking place just like the Quran like later on the Quran comes on the scene and then there's like a borrowing that that Muhammad has yeah so the beginning of the Book of Mormon it begins actually in Jerusalem is where the record actually starts okay is there as Nephi that one that had the vision and Lehi what they did is they they began this record when they were in Jerusalem okay this was like right before the Babylonian captivity these prophets like Jeremiah were going to prophesy that the city was going to be destroyed Jerusalem and so that they they needed to repent we believe that Lehi was also co-prophet that he was keeping this record and what happened is he went forth and tried to do this and then he was commanded by God to leave Jerusalem and to go toward a different land of promised land in source and so Lehi and his family then leave right knowing all the traditions and they actually get a record of like the that contains the books of Isaiah right books of Moses and everything they take a record of that okay with them through the American continent and so thus they are able to know some sort but then they're also prophets and stuff that are called rightly high being a prophet and then God calling prophets later they're on on that American continent to reveal the gospel of Jesus Christ to them at that point now that's said this is getting this is quite interesting so so they do have I guess you could say an Old Testament quote-unquote baggage like they've been brought up in that Jewish custom that Old Testament customs during the Exile but sorry hunter was going to go back you say oh okay so so this is interesting so so they do if you're talking about the 600 BC people they they do have I guess you could say like an Old Testament with them like like they've been not only they've been trained as Jews but they they understand the Torah they understand the Mosaic stories all that stuff when they go out to this problem and then do they have any sort of New Testament borrowings or are they completely ignorant of what's happening in the New Testament era they don't have any writings or anything from the New Testament except for the part when Jesus Christ we believe that he actually came and ministered to these people on the American continent as well so that in a sense would be around the same time of his forty day ministry to the Apostles in an axe run I see so then now notice see how this is this is my scientific analytical brain going on so so you know what would be a really cool experiment or like a like a study or a test to do is to then take I guess you could say the the segment of the moment scriptures that have an Old Testament sort of overlap because they already had the Old Testament with them and all that and see how much it coheres in that context then put that aside and then take the bit that only is is involving Jesus you know during the forty days thing and see how much that coheres and overlaps with the Mutis and message that was simultaneously happening you know across the world and then if I mean if there is a coherent message in that segment of Scripture between the Mormons and the New Testament I think that would be a key example as to knowing whether there was an authentic simultaneous sort of messaging going on I don't I think do you understand what I'm saying or do you like me to rephrase to give you an example you're saying so if you could prove that the Old Testament portion for like 600 BC to like like Jesus Christ birth right that's bad so so what makes of the moron what books of the moment scriptures would go between 600 BC and 0 bc o 1 BC let's just say it wouldn't be personified to Helaman in the book of Warren okay so then you put that aside and have it specifically designed for I guess I could say Old Testament research like overlap and then what books forever yeah hey you're got a little bit let me Hank I'm gonna call you right back am I breaking up yeah okay all right I can hear you can you hear me now yes yep okay cool cool yeah sorry I was still connected to mother monitor so I couldn't even figure out what my screen stuff was no I think I think we reached a really interesting point of the discussion that is like actually knowing the authenticity of of the moment scriptures in light of I guess you could say independent verification so the period between 180 and 480 that period would be like the books that encompass that period would be key to analyzing whether it coheres independently with New Testament theology without even knowing about the New Testament if you know what I mean because if Jesus independently goes and does what he does that would be a that would be a very powerful argumentation in my opinion it would because you see it wouldn't be as powerful as from the fall from the 600 BC to the 1 BC period because I really have the Old Testament with them you know human like let's just say it's it's purely human imagination people can obvious like like the Quran you just take what pre-exists and you just use imagination and you you go along with that and then and then I think it comes that's why it comes down to the when I asked earlier about the theology questions like like the two powers in heaven that the two Jehovah's that the theosis language you know everything that we see in the New Testament are there parallels in the Mormon scriptures of that period that communicate that saw the same thing or maybe even in a much richer way because if there's if there's radical well I don't know if disagreements a right word but if it's like a radically different sort of perspective then again it now goes on to like just skating on thin ice so to speak and right yeah if you you'd have to compare the two and if it's if it were made up then it would be there probably be some ulterior alternative motive I guess is admit that may not even be an ulterior motive maybe it's just people at the time that was just running wild with their imaginations or maybe agendas or ultimately I think the old theory of motive let's just say that the stuff didn't exist at the time but it only existed like I'm this is a pretty radical view and I'm I don't know if I'm this could be this could be under the conspiracy category I don't know I'm just saying this out of a whim but let's just say all of this is just made up by Joseph Smith himself then then that would fit the ulterior motive category so I don't know about the authenticity of the whether there is historicity behind the the actual moment scriptures like between 600 BC and 400 AD so I think like do you guys agree with my with the the test did that independent sort of verification test yeah okay yeah that's something then not something you should guys should check out because I am and to be honest even I will check that out that that that's given me something to look into so yeah I'll look into it what so just just quickly what book would you say would be between 188 like the birth of Jesus up to 480 what what books what are the names of the books on that sequence so it would be spanning from 35 chapter 135 chapter 1 the people on the American continent are given the sign of Jesus Christ's birth and then it's 420 ad is the very end of hooker Mormon okay and next let's see how many pages it is it's not a tons of pages honestly what do you say 500 yeah that's the whole book yeah they're Hellenistic so from that point it's only 130 pages okay I'm not a song from 3rd Nephi right starting from 35 to or to the end would be 120 something pages yeah do okay we've been asking you guys questions do you have any questions for us we need to be fair becomes like yeah is there just out of curiosity when we explain like the gospel of Jesus Christ like how we believe it other than like the baptism thing and I like our belief this Christ and everything would you say that our beliefs are in line in like with the baptism aside in regard not disregarding like the theology and everything he said he was repeating the time or so so I guess specifically the question would would our views the in line if we take away baptism and its necessity and the idea of who like Jehovah God it's and is that because he listed four steps on this Harbor okay yeah mountains and then it'd be baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost okay there we to the end uh weren't worried is where is the problem that I want to say opposition but maybe disagreement disagreement yeah in that uh without light we for my understandings of those three things I say that us fit along with the idea of New Testament because the Holy Spirit is given to the Apostles and acts to all actually really throughout the entire spectacle yeah so pretty much yeah it's just it I guess it's just like instead of it in a general idea that it's the details um which the smallest thing can totally throw something on off you know and I guess I kind of like in so I so yeah sausage so that would be my answer and an example that would be you know the uh the overlapping of flight with the Book of Mormon and the New Testament and then there's these like little things so like oh wait huh where where did that just go like that just totally went in the Russian that I'm not used to you know so why is that you know so that's where it's like it's in the details of it it's where it would seem to I would seem to see like a disagreement in like for instance the Mormons of using divine counsels theology which you know you know Christians a whole to the acceptance Lee oh we know everything because honestly yeah that's kind of where I just I just see it where and that's where I'm trying to understand more and I see that's where the disagreement is is it sanity that's not necessarily the over line but in the details all right do you want where ah I was just gonna say it I'll give you one because hunter is pointing out you know in this case teacher so I'll give you one example if do you have the key is so with the book a moment yeah you carry the King James with you absolutely okay so then just to make it easy I'll I'll go to the King James Hunter did you want to say anything else so we can die and just go to Matthew 5 and all other Christians know about the 17 you know think not that I come I am come to destroy the law or the prophets I have not come to destroy but to fulfil but and then you know verse 18 and 19 Jesus goes into the for verily I say unto you till heaven and earth pass one yard and one tittle shall not in all ways passing a law blah blah blah but verse 20 is what I'm getting at with respect to your question what so just from your own reading of verse 20 what do you think Jesus is communicating if anywhere you want to read it yeah oh yeah for I send to you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven yeah so what what does Jesus saying that now now I would I would encourage you to think like a first century Jew in this case like all of us this whole everyone in this discussion we have to go into that context it'd be kind of intimidating right because the scribes and Pharisees are very exact in regards to obeying the law of Moses bingo which you see in the prior verses right the 1-yard wanted all they would have a stylus pen that would go along with every letter of the Torah because that's what a scribe and Pharisee encompasses right exactly so therefore in this hyperbolic sort of statement that a scribe and Pharisee like sim symbolized what it means to keep a hundred percent of the law Jesus is saying you need a righteousness that exceeds a hundred percent keeping of the law in order to get into the kingdom of heaven and then the question is is that even possible no unless you rely upon him right because we believe exactly like theirs that I really I've been thinking about this scripture the whole time in sorry I'm kind of hopping into it here but it from your 10 verse 32 it says yay coming come unto Christ and be perfected in each one of us and yourselves of all ungodliness and if you shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might mind and strength then is this great grace sufficient for you that by His grace you may be perfect in Christ and if by the greatness of God here perfect in Christ he can in no wise deny the power of God now see that perfect in Christ language you just read yeah so now okay now hold up in your thought and also hold the Matthew 5:20 in your thought now jump to Philippians 3 so now in Philippians 3 because notice that Jesus is speaking about scribes and Pharisees and Paul if you go from us well starting from verse 5 and and I'll read it so circumcised the eighth day of the stock of Israel of the tribe of Benjamin an Hebrew of the Hebrews as touching the law a Pharisee so he's putting his himself in the category of like a hundred percent zeal with the Torah noland so concerning zeal persecuting the church touching the righteousness which is in the law blameless but what things were gain to me those I counted loss for Christ yayyyy doubtless and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and do count them but dung that I may win Christ and be friends so here's the point he's just given himself all these credentials and he's saying all of those credentials are like down to me now and then verse 9 he says and be found in him not having mine own righteousness which is of the law but that which is through the faith of Christ the righteousness which is of God by faith and so this is this let leads into what the early church called imputed righteousness it's basically again the acts 2:38 thing repent and believe is when you turn to Jesus and by faith alone God's right it's God's righteousness that's imputed to you in order to exceed the righteousness of in this case the scribes and the Pharisees or basically any any human even though theoretically he may have the ability to keep a harpist under the law you still need a righteousness that exceeds that and that righteousness is divine righteousness it's from God that's imputed to you yeah and it's through this it's through the work of Jesus by faith alone so therefore I can never add anything to that and that's what Paul realizes and then at the end of chapter 3 in verse verses 20 to 21 in Philippians 3 for our conversation and and the King James a bit old-fashioned here in the Greek it means your citizenship so for our citizenship a conversation is in heaven from whence also we look for the Savior the Lord Jesus Christ notice that phrase law does so that's Yahweh Jehovah Jesus Christ who shall change our vile body that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body that now this is the theosis language so now that I've been imputed with his righteousness in the resurrection I will be like unto his glorious body which means I will be in that celestial heaven and you know the stuff that you were talking about so then how much of all this then drives with your moment theology I'd say a good bit of it there's a scripture that I just thought of in its talking about faith hope and charity now those are the things that we need to says and after that he came after that he came and also were saved by faith in his name and my faith they became the sons of God and then in a later verse in that chapter it says wherefore my beloved brethren praying to the father with all the energy of heart that you may be filled with this love which he has bestowed upon all who are true followers of His Son Jesus Christ that he may become the sons of God that when he shall appear we shall be like him for we shall see MSE is that we may have this hope that we may be purified even as he is pure amen and so I wasn't talking about that faith and how we can as we develop that faith hope and charity that when he appears we can thus be like him and that's something that we agree on absolutely but you see that that said we can be like he is that's that sounds verbatim from John's letter because John writes that in first John 3 verse 2 what it's like the batum that's that's what John says yeah in the first John I think you might be in for chapter 4 chapter 3 was to Raiders – yeah right yeah so so now this now from what you're reading then it sounds like it's just faith alone and that's it nothing there's no works involved not – okay yeah and then this is just like a whole another conversation and everything something we all date you know and we probably other we got like other stuff we wanted to do and everything it is like that faith right that's like the primary most important thing and then all the actions and everything are to enhance that faith and everything in to strengthen that faith but we we do believe that it's only we believe that all mankind may be saved by obedience so the laws and ordinances of the gospel that's something that's been revealed through the prophets and apostles that have been taught there was there's one apostle in our church and these are words that we claim to be true that good works and faith alone will neither redeem nor exalts mankind but only viable like obedience to the laws and ordinances and Covenants of the gospel but we're being on covenants in our church yeah and how that were important for our salvation and everything so but okay so we faith is important and I I don't think we don't want baptism or anything to make us think that we are like earning or working our way towards heaven but the way that we kind of there is a certain qualification right to be made clean right and I guess we just kind of see this idea of like us becoming clean before God a little bit differently well I was yeah and I would if I were you read all of Romans read all of Galatians a read of all those yeah right but I encourage you not the King James because that the the archaic language can be a little bit misleading in some sense so if I if I were you I'd encourage like the is V or the ESV to read from hunted yeah did you have anything to say hunter oh I just like listen like this is like a lot of stuff here so which is pretty cool huh you just all actually have some kind of conversation and not try to like if some people be kind of yelling over each other force each other you know just simply just kind of hear about what is free to know yeah so I think it's good to have you know I like the heavies that's why I like you guys coming over so much because it's not like I can just you know walk outside at the door and go hey let's toast yeah but it's nice to someone actually wants to come along come to my house and talk yeah ah Joey I really appreciated not all of you got us to death during Slough today I keep I told the less felt like at all every single ideology that I've ever run into LDS has always been the nicest like every single time I ran into or anything like that or we got to talk to one of them there's what I worked with it now back over here and she actually is doing her missionary in Utah I think she's one yeah her name's Olga is a really cool person and she told me you know she's a Mormon but she hates how like you're telling somebody tells of that they try to force towers around I mean I know know what people culture really so I can't really say anything you know but I love that you know she's being day off so that's so that's actually how I can get one looking once it's online and that's how you know you guys so but I don't I don't want to take I know you did say you wanted to be dealing with some stuff but you never know have my number still stay in touch man because after I love these things I love this conversation just I mean I was just on it with him and just well haven't you guys come by because I was in the middle of definitely something that kind of for a minute they forgot that it was gonna have a one and I've lost track of time you're getting and then America I think and you know so yeah but if you guys do you need to go I understand yeah because Ivy said you want to go yeah just like a nursing home I got back I'm uh let them so they can recover a Mac tells oh come on nice to meet you man no worries Mike you take care all right these four fights or whatever [Laughter] how to use a digital do which is a Aborigine musical instrument yeah yes for you

The one thing that always throws me off about Mormons is Native Americans. It’s common knowledge that they don’t have any Israelite DNA in them. In this day and age, I don’t understand how people can be Mormon since DNA studies shows that there is no link between Native Americans and the Near East

The Bible talks of the Trinity. Something that is not understood by us for it is not a human concept. It's not something that a human mind can comprehend and yet there it is. I conclude that it is not fabricated by a people that do not have an understanding of it. Mormonism talks only of human ideas and things that fall within the realm of our understanding. Anything in the Bible that is an otherworldly idea is broken down in a way that humans can understand or in a way that a human could have thought of it. This is contrary to the belief that God's ways are beyond our understanding.

The Book of Mormon has no geological or historical evidence for it's events or locations having taken place. It uses ideas and locations known at the time to attempt to give it credibility but there are no collaborative accounts by any culture, nation, or geography. The people and events in the Bible have other testimonies from historical figures as well as evidence of the locations and events shaping them to give support to it's authenticity. Where is the evidence that says the Book of Mormon can be trusted?

I’m surprised by his composure. This was a well behaved debate. He stuck his ground and I pray that God works in his heart to show the true meaning of God’s word and that Mormonism is not biblical at all.

A few things I noticed during this video.

One, the tablets that Jospeh “translated” have now been proven to not even say what he said they did. That alone should show this young man that Jospeh was a false prophet.

Also they believe that Jesus is Satan’s brother??? What? Where does the Bible say that at? No where’s.

Also where does the Bible say that we all get our own planet to rule? The more kids you have the more planets you rule?

Those are just a few things I noticed not mentioned to him when the opportunity came up.

God bless

Great vid man, I'm currently talking with some mormon missionaries as well! I'm just going to paste a bunch of video links for additional resources that others can do further research on mormonism,

(at 14:10–22:40)

Greek word for "for" in acts 2:38 Can be translated "Because." So it would read, repent and be baptized because of the remission of sins


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