Inspiring discussion "Pluralism in media"

Inspiring discussion "Pluralism in media"
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what is pluralism in the media is it ownership as for me pluralism in media means that all groups of society all political groups all groups of different people have the same rights to explore their views on media to explore the agenda and have no pressure for one or more groups anybody else what is realism I think the tourism matters because we have if you want to have a pure democratic system then you should have an opportunity to hear all the voices that are that you have in the in the country for example on some bigger scale we can talk about you once again or some other mobilised community has to say and without the tourism you can really fast go into authoritarian political regime and so as you can see the example of Russia the one who's lost one business journalist from Medusa that is right now is facing prison time you can see that result of tourism in media you will develop a system that will probably collapse into something more harsh and undemocratic so I think that's the most important thing immediately to issue the pluralism is one of the most important things that you should have should have in media I mean even in Ukraine we see that the oligarchs that are dominating five or more channels that they have there are pretty much construct the agenda as they want and in the result we have such results in prevention elections and you will have certain extent bad results in problem parliamentary elections do you have I mean I guess yes I mean I mean we have some issues in sense that for example some media's and not allowed in Ukraine to broadcast I mean Russian channels for example I don't think that it's full extent I mean it's it's not a democratic norm to ban the the media on the on the basis of its origin few thing is its Russian didn't should ban it it's a famous example this channel doors the pretty much a liberal one but the you banned it in Ukraine yeah I mean some yeah so some you cannot buy a broadcast television broadcast from the local company and that it would have a doors in it's like channels that it broadcasts for example there are some of course through I think the respond companies it actually does it because I have a friend that actually watch the doors on his channel but it's it's much illegal of course you can like when we speak about pluralism in media we talk basically about the political priorities because if you look back media history on the development of newspapers doesn't matter which political system they were connected to certain political parties in certain political views and I actually think that political pluralist means like some bias a little bias towards some political views right like tomato like liberal different and it's it really works now in America or in Britain politicals in British political systems and so even if Ukraine we had be able to have a lot of different like media and they don't often express political views it wouldn't be like political pluralism actually we have although we don't have like political parties really have small nation media which express some political views toward some parties yes so I mean it's really connected with so it's a very notion of pluralism is very political because we don't speak about like writing about entertainment and some fashion it's not about fairies right it's about its political thing and put as a notion of political parties it's not even in political science review political parties as institution which belongs to not like sector of the state but sector of civil society often severe if you speak about this three sector model of society private public and civil so it's and media is also here like it should be here and if talking about Ukraine problem we have is of course probably like private ownership of this media and it's it doesn't favor this is discussion because it also media should belong to the civil part of sector to words of my thoughts on the subject my first thought is so from where I come from from Britain we have the the pluralism we have is that part of the media is state media the BBC the most famous which of course in that case has very strict rules on being objective and being balanced almost to a ridiculous extent sometimes they will always have one view here one view here so during the referendum campaign on brexit they would always have a balanced view of the political voices and then you have the commercial media which does give a variety of voices but of course some particularly well Rupert Murdoch is the classic case of our sort of our media oligarch so he owns the Sun newspaper which is the biggest single newspaper The Times newspaper and The Sunday Times and Sky television he did own he's now been forced to reduce his stake but this amounted to a huge opinion in numbers and he opposed the European Union he was very euro skeptic and Pro brexit so already we therefore have a dis an imbalance in in views really but nonetheless there is a plural plural ism here in Ukraine do you still have state television yeah and private television but my thinking was that with the internet you would get much more variety of views is that the case does the internet really open things up who would like to tell me about the internet here in in Ukraine do you get lots of uses yeah I mean yeah it's true because we have a lot of small nation media but it's also a problem of how they say it like like sharing this information with others of scope like this news media have really small audiences so is this is a problem because most people still watch TV and it's it was funny Medusa yeah any brain orgy yeah many people like it Medusa watch media like use and we have also small nation media like this in Ukraine maybe not so popular we have a lot of cultural media media connected with culture books media especially like for book readers and everyone knows about them so who loves this topic we have like left media we have mm-hmm yeah we have music media so media media dedicated to music we have cinema media and there are not on the bond like source but a lot of sources and we have a lot of subscription like models I mean there are a lot of but really the audience is very small of this media I guess so you would say and here a toast you cannot watch those TV in Ukraine you can't watch it to you that's what so you can live stream it or download it to people do that we have different kind of media in internet but the oligarchs you know they understood that this is a power and now bought a lot of channels mostly view it in Internet and also they bought some bloggers and leaders of opinions I think because there are no you know and the you can yes you can take that there are a blurry smooth views in media but now you should choose the right media I don't know because there are a lot of propaganda in media of different things so what do you mean by right not belongs to other girls not belongs to into big business I don't know that because they are manipulating these facts for example anatoly sharij is manipulating this text so yeah you know the whole I'll come to you in a sec xqk first yes okay my point was about also Orissa statement about the covering because I was I was analyzing and I was a witness what had happened when Doge was banned from the Russian TV paid channels so you could just watched it just watching TV and for example what I have seen it was my relatives that I was observing so when dosh was okay was free you could watch it that they have some critical opinions when when the doors was banned and Doge was shifted to the Internet audience so the critical degree just dropped down it is a great point of of the coverage that in Internet you have not saw such audience that you have on TV yes yes yes and I also about and also about Internet that yes as Sergey was saying about all the guard when with high spreading of internet for example a democratic arrangement part of Russia was just have some hope that in internet you could you could get free information free propaganda but people with stateman is they just starting they started writing for Internet media so they just moved to Internet and so you also shoot a peak very seriously information you're reading yes in for example Medusa that is no is it working for Russia but it's working in Latvia or so it's not in latter it's not Russia's like crazy crazy and I think I just okay so the quick sentence also not a reason I mentioned and your question I mean that if internet made it more accessible I would actually try to disagree with this because in the end we have more sources but we also have in newspapers more sources nishto where people could have access but Internet the website you also create more polarization because still the big channels could control it but now you also read sometimes fake news or manipulated news but then you also have 100 people agreeing with it so I'd say that the traver you have a bigger source of choice but with this choice there is also a lot of spam and a lot of like informational trash and in a way then that created this communities built around certain portals which where there are a lot of people who I mean there are also trolls that's one part but even people amplify their opinions because they comment and they see that so many people have the same idea that I would say it I am not so sure that it actually democracies that democratize that in their media space but it's rather contributed to more polarization between in among it what I call the blogger fication of the media perhaps that the Internet has given an enormous opportunity for opinions without plaques and what we need is much more fact before we get to the opinion so that people can make their own view and one of them I think that when you want more pluralism in the media it must be more sources of information and not just more sources of opinion and it's it's making that leap now I've spent all my life working for a business newspaper and the advantage of working for a business newspaper is one if you give bad information people stop reading you because they want good information because they either want to make money or they don't want to lose money and if you give them rubbish information they will quickly discover but you're not worth reading so it's a very good discipline a business newspaper and one of the questions and I'll come to you straight away Justina but one of the interesting things about is even galuna was the journalist the three newspapers that came out and said we are even gonna were all three the business newspapers which was a good example that there is a discipline there and when I for my first job on my newspaper my editor said three things to me is that two things to me is that one the Financial Times is always right so the word you use so god help you if you are ever wrong and second get your haircut I just have a challenging question to you because now in times of fast information you spend you could spend a lot of time just checking the facts so how now newspapers like Financial Times are dealing with it because you have to give information fast and so how could you prove information in in short terms I think there's a it's a huge challenge I mean I used to work on a daily ribbon but I would have until five or six o'clock in the evening to talk to people about a particular story what's happening what's you know and collect information one of my posts for the newspaper was in Brussels where the European Union was the story all the time and I would be able to talk to maybe six people from different countries or different institutions and I would always say it was like building a jigsaw puzzle and when you got enough pieces you could understand what's going on now you're absolutely right now suddenly they want the information that 9:00 a.m. and they want an update at noon and then they want another story at 4:00 and another story at 6:00 and it's a nightmare so we introduced something called fast FT which was the instant information beginning of the day and then during the day they expand I can tell you two things one my colleagues my successors and so on are working much harder than I ever worked in that way and yet I suspect they get it wrong more often and then sometimes you just have to say I cannot do this I cannot write this story I don't have the information so you know I'm simply gonna say it's not there or we don't know what's happening and so that's important and as I say the discipline of providing information to investors or business people was good the danger for my other take other British newspapers times Guardian whatever in Brussels is they've got a much more general audience and so it's more difficult to cater for that audience it's also more difficult in the Internet age to be generalist you you you are going for a narrow audience ISM that way you get more advertising you get it's clearer and so financially or commercially it's a better decision but you're absolutely right that the pressure the and this is what I've seen so let's say I was a journalist for 40 years I started in 1970 before any of you were born except Khosla the transformation in terms of competition has been enormous when I started essentially that was print there was radio there was television absolutely no internet at all my first computer I got in about 1980 so I've been a journalist in 1970 typewriter telex machine first computers came in about 1982 and they only had six lines on the screen and all you could do was basically send and receive you couldn't there was no internet to go on and everything so that it was like a glorified typewriter so the internet really only comes in Oh over the 10 years after that in the 1990s and it was just a transformation and one that is very uncomfortable but I suspect I mean in in Britain my children get 90% of their information from the internet not from television not from news they don't read any newspapers any long so it is a complete transformation but what about the challenge is this people seem to like to read media or watch media that they agree with people don't tend to read or look at media they don't agree with so actually it's okay this is what you're saying about you know why should I read that or I don't want to read what the oligarchs been taught and I suspect that will always be the case and yet if you really want to be informed you need to know what the enemy is thinking so and one of the problems with the internet is the algorithm system whereby the moment that the Facebook's and of this world know the sort of things you're interested in they send you more and more of the same views so I have one of my son's quite deliberately goes to he's sort of center-left views he goes to right-wing sites so that he gets information from those sources as well as the left-wing information so he can see what they're saying but do you work like that anybody liked how do you read the Internet I think it's discussion about the bubbles the media bubbles happened in Ukraine like which much recently and first of all it's connected to the space Facebook and then a certain certain rise of civic society organizations they became more influential and they pretty much created some some some yeah some community is that it's it speaks only with its own members pretty much and from this point we have I have at least started thinking about destroying this bubble and getting out of it and to get more information from other resources and many people in Ukraine right now thinking about and talking about it my personal method of doing it is using Twitter I just I'm subscribed to many Russian channels for example I often read the news a day coming up is I'm also subscribed to many you can oligarchy channels just to know what is going on I mean it's very useful tool because they have really small those things only there's a new the news itself and you can go using the link to to see what's more about it and it's it's really helpful just to yeah to understand the whole situation what is going on and yeah yes it's it's a really important issue right like thinking how we can actually overcomes this problem of bubbling is to say how to and it's even more important for people that already understand the in bubble by how to tell other people that actually captured by some news agenda and they need to come out of it and trying to grasp more information and I think it's more about education actually you were saying the danger of the Internet is it polarizes views but aren't the views polarized before they read the Internet and therefore you have this bubble phenomenon or does the internet make it work no I think they're definitely already polarized but it just amplifies the polarization by the fact that you can't only talk to your family or to your friends but you also have all this unknown people who have the same views so just trying to say I do agree that it was already polarized and even when you have TV I mean some people watch one channel and the other watched our Channel it was the same I think it just gives you more power to these groups and sometimes smaller communities or more they also have once in their more extreme sides where people find more followers and they can grow this communities and then I think what you said is also true in their civil society or more activist bubble people get completely detached from the reality which happens on the ground so this is sometimes like for example we see how you know we expect all the people to vote the same as we vote and then we are surprised by the results of the voting I think it was brexit a lot as well so and then I think this is and there it now facebook claims to change the algorithm algorithm on social media were contributing to this polarization because you see what you liked and then you like what you believe so this this is basically what I meant yes but I have a question to you what isn't it a problem of information sources at all because for example when you have different newspapers for example in Britain or in France their right-wing or left-wing and so and for example you're all you life you're reading for example x so isn't it also a bubble for you so is it a problem is it an instant problem of information sources yeah I I think that it's absolutely no question people read the newspaper that tells them what they agree with so people read in in England the Daily Telegraph very conservative they feel reassured but the Internet has magnified that effect and it's also magnified the effects in a way people I think I may be we're all getting clever about it but you sort of assume the Internet is an open space and what you don't really realize even when you know about the bubble you still think but I'm getting a variety of views and you're not you're not actually hearing the other side of the story or the balance of information is clearly and the Internet is such an explosion of information I mean there's so much of it because it's unlimited I mean I remember when we were starting to produce the newspaper online and the editor said to me it's fantastic the marginal cost of every extra reader for us is zero it costs us nothing to win new readers whereas a print newspaper we had to physically print it distribute it and so on so now we are they have cut right back on the print edition and they are fighting all the time just to expand the internet edition which makes commercial sense because it costs us zero to win new readers and so it's changed the entire business model of a newspaper and I find that for me I'm a conservative old reader of a newspaper I like to read a newspaper at breakfast I don't want to look at my telephone I want to read and in the old days now again I was not reading a newspaper which was overtly political the Financial Times believes in free markets and it's fundamentally sort of socially liberal and economically liberal but it's not hardline left or hardline right but I would think that every morning in one newspaper of twenty pages or thirty pages I would be given all the information I needed now on the internet you have to go here there and everywhere Twitter is one very interesting so do you all use Twitter now who doesn't too much time wasting or why because Twitter I think that is it isn't my type of information because it's very small i i'd like facebook because there are more interest interesting conflicts in that more than twitter if we say about a green and also polarization is one of the main results of becoming system or plural because people valeria you have an question how to make people angry give them as a point of view for example I also found for myself a good way to to somehow systematize consuming of information by Instagram I I subscribe to The Economist to the Guardian to Financial Times to all of the tall world news in Instagram and the type of information is not as small as in Twitter and it is not as long as we have from the site for example or through this subscription so it gives you rather deep idea the Instagram the Instagram apartment and it gives very good picture that the the that is with with you and in your head by the end of the day so for example for me the Economist is the best it's using Instagram because and and I also and I also found a lot of like ladies who started to to read The Economist in Instagram and even became a much more educated because they were before because no no because because they just don't use anything else except of Instagram you I think we all have friends in our surroundings those ladies and gentlemans who use only Instagram my name is Pablo so I just wanted to add one information about Facebook in Ukraine just for you better to understand Ukrainian media sphere Facebook in Ukraine is like Twitter and LinkedIn outside of Ukraine in Europe for example it's like Ukrainian phenomenons that in facebook we we use Facebook for interviews for example to talk with deputies for with colleagues with another journalist and so on so Facebook in Ukraine is like in clean but and it's a balloon clean for example it's not very popular in Ukraine it's unusable at all and Twitter is not so popular cause Facebook do it in Ukraine it happened it happened because of contact here it's a social media which was before the Facebook and now it is blocked it was blocked three years ago and people from Kentucky went yeah they went to Facebook and to Instagram and the Instagram became a more Polly Polly politicized yeah yeah also we have another phenomena which is not which you can't you can't find it in Europe in any European car even in the United States we use telegram and we have a lot of telegram channels so it's very interesting because it's one-way communication you don't speak with somebody with a channel there I mean with any reduction yeah us just receive information from this channel you can't say Thompson but you receive information from the editor from the journalists and so on and it's really it appeared in Russia now it appeared in Ukraine and these channels are very popular in Russia it's because of censorship in all Russian TV channels and so on but in Ukraine have another reasons why it's appeared but it's very popular I thought on the Russian thing my impression is that in a way the cleverness of the sort of Putin information machine is that he has filled up television with entertainment and there's no room left for any politics he just sort of pushed it out and there's just rubbish sort of it it's the other side of karl marx's that religion is the opium of the people now we have Putin's entertainment television is the opium of the people and nobody takes telegram because now more after Facebook said that they won't introduce I couldn't they did not allow me there to be like to be to be able to pay a lot of media channels also international move to telegram and I think now I'm it's also growing I also started following like using telegram much more because I think a lot of media also present on Twitter most a telegram and you know it's like I mean telegram is much more private than because then what's up Facebook and Instagram they have the same owner but then telegram is like separate and then they really develop because many people move there and you can follow new channels but you can also have groups and I think it's really growing much faster so I for me there was a discovery of this year I think yes I was also at some words about telegram firstly telegram which bonded in Russia so in order to get information you need to to install every pen yes and so telegram became platform for free sort for some thoughts about yes about what happened in Russia for example but it's also a problem that there is it's a unanimous channel you could not find also because also anonymous because of the problems of that you will be for example tracked by police for example it was it is it was a case of Stalin gulag channel that yes he just he was posting just some critics critics gritty sink awards he was not saying any information and he was not calling for for revolution or opposition he was just criticizing and even he also was police tried to see to see him on the point that he was doing some calls about terrorism terrorism calls so yes and that's why it's problems that its telegram is valid and the result of unanimous channels but surely I want to put two things to you one maybe to talk about big data I mean everything you put and the amount of information and this is one of the terrifying discussion is I wanted to previous discussion so we started with a question how to cope with this filter bubbles we have and we started to talk about different social media we used to solve this problem so my eternity is a bit different I think the I use like email subscription with email and I think it's the best way to receive this information why yeah because I what I don't like in social media they basically they privately-owned and as you said about this big data and their main goal is profit right it's and they motivate privately oriented topics and they motivate us to post privates like winks about our family stop fat skits and everything like that and it really distorts the very idea of public space and I don't like when I see in the one news feed I see like private topics for example some pets some cats and some politically engaged topic it for me it's really like kind of mess and I think that this very phenomenal filter bubbles came up from social media right so it's really a yeah it's not how it should be and Stella Graham is a bit of a stern attitude because it's like a personal channels but but still you have really like the information is to have her to how it for me in the sense of and I actually I can let gets to your second question about this lake news but I would make it wider Cairo because yeah it was already talking about these issues of like credibility of information and I think the issue of gatekeepers is important as well because when we had like this standard model of journalists we had newspapers and we had editors who really like tried to check the information should it go and we had like limited space for information we have only this like pages in a newspaper were limited and it had to choose what's really important and you had to choose what's credible because it is the reputation of this place by depended on it and in unbeliev tonight you can like put a lot of information and I think the question of gatekeepers is really important like it's really it's very important because talking about one more thing about this news feed we also have like opinions which are like very raw opinions so it's opinion of person who doesn't know context and at the same time like down to here we have opinion which is really quite worked on which has a lot of different information behind and it's it's really the problem and I think this mass of news feed it's really it's very profitable in the sandals that it catches attention and it it really loves to collect data to like to make people engaged to do like motivates this economy of attention but it's not good for public discussion fear yeah I want to get one or two people in not with shitty bulbs but I'm talking about kake news I guess the main point the ratio already talked about it is providing getting we have an urgency to this cold topic and they were up by it's working with Russian propaganda but we also on the global scale we have been in cat and great and I think the work that they have done is enormous and we need more people like that vacant because yeah but sometimes they had two jobs and then later on they got grant from some organization as I remember yeah and then later on as they became more popular one of the journalists it was from nederlands he started to working in New York Times and I think he still part of the team but yeah so they came off I mentioned went on hunting career at least he did and I think that the main things that can be done in working in like fighting the fake news is helping those agencies to develop and I think overall in media in like in providing Cleary's in media states should take action in making some some play grunting I guess private public projects would be useful in that matter but as always the problem is it's nobody interests yeah if nobody wants actually a realistic media you won't have it only I mean in polish me some no no no like great stakeholder wants it I cannot speak on behalf of the whole Balan cat but I know in person one of the investigators and he has his own business he doesn't need to be paid this is his hobby I guess this works for quite a lot of them I'm not too sure I've been I've been I've kept silent because I've been working a lot with Russian disinformation and now present perfect shouldn't be used here I worked a lot I don't do it anymore was I worked to left Russian disinformation this information since I was doing that since 2015 till 2017 but they East Ratkin task force that used to to be there at European external Action Service under mogherini at European Commission now it has been changed a bit and it's it ever loaded into a proper Department already finally at E is I I mean I I can't really talk about total as many media in Ukraine because I'm super sick and tired of this topic and and I I don't think we have pluralism and we have proper media I worked as a journalist in Ukraine I worked as radio journalist I think very particular for a particular for a radio station which was owned one the only media outlet in Ukraine but was which wasn't owned by an oligarch Ukrainian oligarchs from from Netherlands it's owned by by – Media Holdings so has no political interests interests at all I think that that we have to be a bit clearer here from that we had to be a bit clearer here from the very beginning when you started speaking about BBC in the UK we do have a national media in Ukraine then that one national channel which is already semi public or whatsoever but it has it's not good first of all it has very little audience second of all so it cannot be compared with BBC it has no influence I mean no influence is wrong I mean but it has like 0.5% influence all the rest are the channels owned by oligarchs promoting either one or the other point of view making to promote a business which is what they all they are they they are all part of connected to his politics like all of them but given that the politics here he still said personality pointless and not really very ideological and they just plug in people that you know and so column I skipped like zalenski or whatever I mean we have three if I'm not mistaken channels the third channel what was bought quite recently by mr. medve Chuck Wright and I have friends working for that channel which now are at like what would have a lot of stake now because they're losing job because they just cannot work for somebody who had who is this kind of person like because I mean you if you have little bit of morals you can't work for a person who is responsible for the conflicts in your country you know what I mean I mean a friend of the president of the country that is promote I mean that is killing people of your country I mean this is something but so so this is the problem that that we have was with media it's not like it so it's not only it's not the Donald Trump kind of thing it's that those people that those oligarchs that own the media on them for the sake of politics not they they only need them as their tool they don't really need them as business because not really I mean one plus one maybe but not these channels have one of these brilliant things that Rupert Murdoch shidduch Greta was he paid very large amounts of money to get sports monopoly on Sky and then having got all the big football games or all the big rugby or whatever then he got his audience and then he could do what he likes with it because people wanted the sport and it would be the same with entertainment because he knew you put up the best shows and then you've got your captive audience which is a big danger and a big challenge to us anybody else here want to come in and tell us does the medium matter to you I mean actually it sounds to me it does you're all very engaged on the subject you'll be you do have strong views about the subject but you're frustrated by the the offer the content you you are not getting the information you want or am I wrong you wanna come back on that it's for me media are really matters especially in sphere when you have not real contains with people who work in this fear because for example in your professional questions you have more information about situation from facebook from some kind of maybe mostly it's from closed information you use media even if you have not a real chance to have deal with people who know how it's really and also I have a question how to deal with facts if you have a media for example you have a media that support some political party labor party or with them's party conservative party UK party but how to deal with facts and in balance between your political position and full picture of information because you must at least give people our information but also you must promote your political position how to deal with it in this I'm as I said rather old-fashioned so I would read the story that I'm interested in on a left-wing newspaper like The Guardian and then I would check that story against a more conservative newspaper and then I would probably take a third or a fourth and I might go for four or five different versions of the same story in order to try and understand what's going on having said that there is a danger and a fellow journalist here I don't there is an awful sense of among journalists they're both very competitive and desperate to have the story that the other one has got and so you get I'm trying to think of the right word for it in that you know our our politics political correspondents in Britain are organized into a lobby in Parliament and that Lobby you come to the end of a day and every single one has the same bloody story because they're trying to cover themselves to make sure so actually you've then got to double check really what's behind it now you may get actually what I do then sometimes now I'm interested very much in European news I will then go to the German media or the French media or a different nationality of media to check the accuracy of my own media that's time consuming but I don't have any time for Facebook or Twitter even I've just gone off them I don't have time to read it all now I wonder what I'm losing I'm losing fast news twitter is very good for the first alert to news and the journalists of the next generation now compete not to get the story first in their publication on their tell they're competing to be out there on Twitter with the story first to show they got it first and then to get other people to retweets and so on but so I'm still using internet-based media in a rather old-fashioned way as if thirty years ago I would go out and buy six newspapers now I can quickly which is a great advantage look at six sources to double-check it but that's because I'm a complete news junky nobody else has that sort of time probably to check and double-check and it's very challenging I mean I think we are all facing a massive overload of information and sorting out that overload of information and I think the world we're living in in the 21st century is every bit as dramatically changing by technology as in the 15th century when the printing press was invented and transformed it broke the church it created civil wars it it and it caused languages to be invented German really became a real language because of the printing press English became a real language up to them they used to just have Latin to communicate in and print and and only the peasants spoke the language now we don't know what the internet is going to do to our lives you're at the cutting edge and I feel very challenged by it when you ask me Christina about you know how do you cope with not having time to do the story it's a real challenge yes I just have another question to you about a challenges in future because now maybe for example in Russia I don't know in Ukraine and in Britain there is a decreasing demand for a newspaper like a material I mean a paper map a newspaper so people prefer to read yes material because for example for example they prefer to read financial type times in the internet not not on on paper and how it will shape the future of newspapers because yes because of the internet where we we get used to free information and for example if we don't buy just a paper just like paper a newspaper and we don't like – maybe I don't know how many of you have such subscription to mass media because I get one subscription to mass media in the internet into the newspaper and it's not it's very rare and so what is so what the problem is that we don't buy now newspaper material and we also don't want to pay for subscription I don't know how it's in Ukraine so what in your opinion what is the future of the newspapers so would it be like people had to do by subscription or I don't know well the received wisdom is that newspapers will not exist in 20 years time that everybody will be reading online now you might be reading a product that is similar in basic concept to the newspaper like reading The Economist or that you know but nonetheless you will be reading it electronically you won't be getting a print version well the financial background to that is we are well two models the traditional newspaper model was the advertising model that we would the newspaper was my the Financial Times when I joined it was financed 70% by advertising or 80 even and 20% by the actual subscription price now can we make that work on the internet I don't think it works very well on the Internet we all try and block the advertisements on oh it's so bloody annoying that buy a Volvo or go on a holiday to to Spain or whatever popping up in front of your eyes the Financial Times has got a subscription model online I get it for free because I work for them for 38 years but it's expensive to get the whole thing it's working for the Financial Times precisely because it's a niche newspaper it's basically catering to a very well-defined audience but if you're a generalist newspaper The Daily Mail is an interesting example in Britain I don't know if any of you know the website Daily Mail online or male online it's I think one of the largest media websites in the world and it's a brilliant formula why because they have lots of stupid stories about cuddly animals and everybody looks at it and then they provide I I mean I hate the opinions of the Daily Mail they're anti-immigrant their right-wing their anti Europe their ghastly but they've got a very clever commercial formula of maximizing the readership and then using adverts to get to them FTS gone down the subscription route and we now have a million readers online paying subscriptions and I think the idea of a free internet is probably going out of date if you want good information if you want entertainment you'll get ads and that that's fine I think that's the way we're going but I think things are moving so fast I mean that we don't know the technology is constantly ahead of us and it's ahead of not just the media but it's ahead of politicians and governments and everything we saw yesterday Kiev City Council trying to say how we engage online with the media but I mean it just all looked terribly old-fashioned to me and it's a very challenging thing too because also we have this expectation of much more interaction that you you know you get lots of opinions coming back to you about the trouble is that that that space is taken over by people with very strong views and it tends to instantly as you was a to polarize people in the old days on a newspaper we got letters to the editor and instantly all the ones that were crazy went on the spike you just ignore them and you had a nice that you know the gatekeeper chose very carefully it's much more difficult to do on the internet and I'm not sure and people will scream and they'll say the whole point of the internet is to be open and free and without censorship but in fact what's happened is it's open and free and full of crap it's full of actually rather extreme views so you've got you're the ones who are going to have to be your own gatekeepers you're gonna have to learn to be selective and you're gonna have to learn to spot the rubbish I think it's and I've got a friend who's doing courses in schools in Belgium and in Germany now I don't know where else they'll try and go specifically to educate under ten year olds to spot fake news and you know to get it inculcated that right at an early age yes these kids are all online who else would like to come in not covered you've all done a project on tourism in the media I think yes and I won't be here to hear the result tomorrow you're gonna present presenting what are your conclusions can I ask somebody to tell me about the conclusions of the project the main point of our group ways which will work in that equation media often use a lot of senses a lot of messages which are not contain we'll see that I really have something with serious things they are worried focused on pets focused on scandals on show business and even if they write something about political life wasn't likes it culture all these messages are really very low so those are a lot of really themes that are very interested and popular in all around the world but still not represent in Ukrainian media as well I suppose with the one of the main ideas of our research was not a social support project is sort granion media and media at all which is very specialized in the local context and some temporal your events and in Ukraine especially we don't have a broader vision of the events in our whole world because for example in which yeah well we have the greatest elections in the Democratic vote in India and Indonesia for example and the influence of this election on the world economy a lot of the cost ability is much greater when the election of ala jami'a Solinsky but in Ukraine we don't know anything about with with type of things so we try to shift the angle of our vision on the political you know in a political known on the political events some in our try try to try to show them from another perspective and we have really big problems with it in in Ukraine and the role model for us was the correspondent maybe heard about that there's a netherlands media outlet which is all have a subscription subscription model and it is specialized on the some type of stories which are not connected to that current current affairs and events and try to explain for the reader much more fundamental things when the idea of the wedding of Megan Merkel and Prince Harry for example and his influence on British crown in UK I've just got a couple of thoughts I wanted I wanted to finish with one is what I like to say too when if I'm lecturing to journalists to young journalists that you can't be too serious you need to win your readers you know I mean if people are not interested in what you're writing about they're not gonna read you you're not gonna be able to get more readers sell more mutton sell more copies of whatever you are or get more advertising if you're boring so we've got to be clear about that we have got to entertain in the broadest meaning of the word as well as and to me the best stories are the ones that make me sit up and say my god I never thought that oh my god that is different to the way I saw it before that is genuinely good information and as a journalist the best stories are the ones that challenge my prejudices or challenge my assumptions and that's the sort of thing that sort of thing that makes you choke on your porridge at breakfast so you've got a surprise you've got to inform but you mustn't be too worthy and so that's sort of one message the best stories are the ones that challenge our prejudices and to me the worst stories and the ones that confirm our prejudices the second thing I were to say with 15 years ago I think it was there must have been about 2004 I was lecturing to a bunch of young journalists in two men I go to thing called the Moscow school then a political satirist studies of now it's called the Moscow school of civic education and it's been declared a foreign agent by mr. Putin and his friends but I went out to two men and I was talking to these young students and I was passionately describing what it was to me to be an objective journalist to search for the truth to hold government to account to try and just find out why why why is this happening I don't believe in conspiracies I believe in cock-ups most of the time governments get things wrong but we need to expose their incompetence as much as we need to expose their evil thing so I made this long spiel and at the end of it two young journalism students came up and said we want to be journalists like you are so I said okay 2004 I said what are you going to do about it and they said we're going to go to Ukraine now I wonder if today it was just after the Orange Revolution it was just up there that and they saw Ukraine as a beacon of openness now it's been much more bumpy clearly enough bad but I wanted to say that was 15 years ago something that two young Russian journalists wanted to do I want to go and work in Ukraine where another one said I want to go to some Petersburg but that was really anyway any other last questions to me because you've got me here for five minutes and then mine I will be around till tomorrow yes thank you I have a general question related to the topic of our conversation and for you is the person from out of Ukraine how do you see our so to speak media market do you think it's like plural one or maybe we have some problems in Ukraine with that thank you you have told me more than I knew already so I don't know your media market very well but I recognize what you know this aisle awful lot of oligarch control out there and quite how are they pulling the strings there is a very limited space for independent media and that in s and the state media is pretty useless more pluralism is always I think a very good thing because it means more competition it means more information but it needs financing and therefore how would you find it the model we're still trying to work out what is the model that works and everybody's coming up with new ideas all the time there's a very interesting project just been launched in London by a former colleague of mine who then went to The Times and then to the BBC and he's launched something called tortoise I don't know if you've heard about it at all it's slow news long-form slow news not short news not Twitter at the opposite sort of 5000 words of really thoughtful stuff and they're in what they're trying to do is bring in a readership who who pay they pay a subscription and they attend meetings every week to say this is what we want to hear about and then they've got a relatively limited number of journalists at the moment but they all say right that's going to be next week's big story or tomorrow's big story it'll be a very interesting project but I fear that they got it beginning they got finance at the beginning from one or two people big rich people who thought this is worth by Nancy next year the year after it will depend on getting people to read it how many of us have time to read 5,000 words every day of thoughtful stuff it's quite a challenge so I think the challenge there and as for your media market I fear that my young journalists into men would today be a bit frustrated by what they faced but I don't I don't know last question yep well I think that was splendid thank you very much telling me lots you

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